Message Thread:
Does 10mil paperbacked veneer protect mdf substrate?
9/4/13
This is my first time using MDF as a substrate to do a whole kitchen that calls for 10mil paperbacked anigre veneer. I got a lot of mixed feedback using mdf,,, moisture issues mainly. Just wondering,, if the mdf is being laminated with veneer, then sealed then top coated with clear conversion varnish,, wont that go very far in keeping moisture from the mdf?
9/5/13 #2: Does 10mil paperbacked veneer prote ...
Not so much. A good finish will slow down the transfer of moisture, but will not prevent it. The veneer is simply wood, so that won't prevent transfer either. I'm don't use mdf for boxes as I find it's just too difficult to deal with. Even when properly pre-drilled it can still split if your not careful with fasters. Plus it's heavy as hell to move around! It's good for doors and even panels, but I just avoid it when it comes to boxes.
Normally on a kitchen you would not veneer the boxes anyway. You would band the faces and end panels, but the interiors could still be pre-finished maple or melamine. Of course if you have the budget to veneer the whole thing then by all means, that'll make for some very expensive interiors;>)
good luck,
JeffD
9/5/13 #3: Does 10mil paperbacked veneer prote ...
thanks jeff, sorry i was a bit vague. By saying i wwas doing a whole kitchen with 10mil paperback veneer, i only meant the doors. all my boxes are 3/4" birch ply, laminated one side with plastic laminate. just trying to be confident that my doors wont swell up anytime soon by using mdf as a sub.
9/5/13 #4: Does 10mil paperbacked veneer prote ...
My kitchen has about 20 veneered MDF doors, and they are perfectly fine after about 10 years. I used plain veneer, though, not paperback.
9/5/13 #5: Does 10mil paperbacked veneer prote ...
In another post on this continuing saga of paperbacked you make this comment.
"#6: Do both sides of panels have to be ...
antonio
thanks rich, i totally agree with you. The other reason why i started having second thoughts about edgebanding first was i realized that no matter how tight i press the veneer with cauls/platens etc , some of the edges always seem to not stick well,, ,maybe like up to 1/4" back from the edge or so. So i figure, glue up the panel about 1" bigger to allow for those lose edges, then cut back to where i know its glued tightly. Btw, im using that pink FSV glue on 10mil paperbacked veneer to an MDF sub. "
But now you think the edgebanding will be really nice and tight and a coat of finish will seal it just fine. Which is it?
Guing anything to the edge of mdf is problematic, let alone a piece of paper with paper thin veneer stuck to it. I say you're in for trouble in a year or so. Better put a short warranty on this job!
Different rich by the way for the quote.
9/5/13 #6: Does 10mil paperbacked veneer prote ...
Rich, i have no idea what you just did there. Sorry it was a long day at work for me and im lost as to what you are talking about. But in my previous post about the ''edges & edgebanding'' had nothing to do with me questioning whether or not i thought paperback veneer would stick to the edges of the mdf... the ''edges'' i was referring to are the face and back of the door closer to the ends. If you will,, when you press a piece of veneer to the face of a substrate, the outer edge of that face was a bit problematic at first,,, after clamping for hours it would still be easy to pull off,,, i realized i didnt have enough cauls on it,,, after adding more cauls,, problem solved. But seeing that you thought i was referring to edges (where the edgebanding goes) ,,, how else would you cover those ? if not with the same veneer that goes on the face/back??
9/6/13 #7: Does 10mil paperbacked veneer prote ...
I use 1/8" hardwood for all my door edges.
9/6/13 #8: Does 10mil paperbacked veneer prote ...
Haven't had any problems gluing banding to the edges of mdf or melamine coated PB anymore than I have problems gluing to veneer core. Since this is basic procedure used by tens of thousands of shops across the world I'd think we'd know by now if banding mdf was a problem?
Anyway as long as your veneer is well glued and your seams are tight and sanded well, including breaking the edges so the finish will stick, you shouldn't have any moisture issues with your doors.
JeffD
9/6/13 #9: Does 10mil paperbacked veneer prote ...
go ahead and use the mdf for your doors, it will be ok. I've done many tests over the years with different substrates , I actually soak the hell out of them, I've even put veneered panels out in the parking lot and let mother nature give it her best shot. As long as you have a good glue line you shouldn't have any issues.
9/7/13 #10: Does 10mil paperbacked veneer prote ...
Adding a C. to my name since we had two rich's adding comments.
rich,
In all your environmental testing, did any of it include paper backed veneer and FSV glue? I would be worried about edge banding with that stuff since Antonio may just be hammer veneering the edge banding in place. He's been all over the place on this one, so I have no idea how he will be applying the edge banding. If he was applying standard veneer with an edgebander, I say no problems either. But, he has no equipment and looking for "garage woodworker" methods of veneer application.
Antonio,
I was referring back to another post in this veneering saga about your doubts with veneer application. I guess I didn't see where you had corrected with a different platen and clamp set up. I still don't like paper backed as edge banding. It's just too thin and fragile in my book. I've always done work for families, and a kitchen can really take some kid abuse. Especially silverware drawers and the always denied but never eliminated junk drawer. As mentioned by another, I always edge band with solid hardwood.
9/7/13 #11: Does 10mil paperbacked veneer prote ...
For edgebanding i am using the same 10mil paperbacked veneer and fsv glue clamped to the mdf with clamps and cauls. So far so good, after letting the ones we have done already cure for 24 hours, trimmed them and sanded them with a slight round on the edges, the glue lines are very tight, and as a plus, i was worried that by edgebanding last there was going to be an evident seam or evidence of cross grain, there was none of that. Thanks guys! and we still are going to invest in the vac. press for future work,, if not even sooner.... so no more ''garage'' workshop :)
9/8/13 #12: Does 10mil paperbacked veneer prote ...
To be perfectly honest with you, I do not recommend paper backed veneer on any product. I actually used to make paper backed veneers for many different customers. The procedure for producing paper backed veneers is very ,how can I say this , tricky.If your heat, pressure and time is off even the slightest in any one of these areas, DE-LAM. Not to mention, you never get a smooth look with paper back.I would estimate about 75% of de-lam issues are actually between the paper and veneer, not the paper back and the substrate. I get the point that not everyone cannot afford a press and you're trying to work within a budget, but when it comes to paperback it's a shot in the dark. Sad to say, but that's what our trade has evolved or should I say regressed to, cheaper, faster to get materials. All I can say is follow your glue specs guidelines, think it through and try to figure out what works best for you.
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