Does it Pay to Own an Edgebander?

A good edgebander can really boost your productivity, but how much machine you need depends on how much volume you're doing. October 9, 2006

I am starting my own small cabinet making shop, around 2-5 kitchens per week. I would greatly appreciate if you could share some of your opinions with me regarding a good starter edgebander. I am looking at glue pot, not hot air. I have considered Mini Max and Laguna and other lower end edgebanders. I would love to be able to afford Biesse or Homag but I am thinking more along the lines of up to $15,000 US. Are they all the same at the lower beginner end or are there lemons and cherries? I am buying a horizontal boring machine too. Any suggestions?

Forum Responses
(Cabinetmaking Forum)
From contributor A:
If you are doing 2 to 5 kitchens a week you should invest in a better machine.

From contributor B:
I don't have one myself so I can't say anything from firsthand experience. But I do see a ton of edgebanders going up for auction all over the place. Seems like if you looked around a little bit you could probably find a very nice high end unit for an attractive price.

From contributor C:
For $15,000 you can either get something new, but inadequate, or get an excellent used industrial machine. Check the listings on this site.

From contributor D:
For my money a good used Holz-Her 1403 is the best bet. They're compact, well built and easy to use. There are more of them on the planet than any other edgebander, so parts and service are readily available. The glue cartridge system (3 minute warm up time) beats any glue pot, especially in a small shop. I bought one (a 1986) about ten years ago. I'm now shopping a CNC router but will likely never need a new edgebander.

From contributor E:
If you are doing 1-5 kitchens a week, then you are not a small shop. Donít be a cheapskate - invest in top quality machines. An edgebander is probably the most complicated machine there is. If you decide to buy used, have a certified technician check it out before you buy, and then have him set it up and train you how to use it - it will be money well spent. Otherwise you will just have a big expensive boat anchor taking up space in your shop.

From contributor F:
How's the Holz-Her stack up to an SCMI K201? I'm also considering an edgebander in the near future and would prefer something that's compact and single-phase.

From contributor G:
The best advice I can give you is to buy a quality edgebander, and a Tritec Gannomat for your horizontal drilling needs. A Gannomat Elite model can be the best purchase ever made. There is almost no maintenance and definitely no problems. It is probably the most efficient machine in many shops and the best bang for the bucks. If possible, I would invest in a small, high-production bander so you don't have to worry about outgrowing a smaller model and re-investing in a larger capacity model later. I had a Brandt edgebander that was invincible for 14 years until we invested in a newer model to add more profiling stations and also one capable of running off of a computer network. We went ahead with a Homag SE model. If maintained properly, an edgebander can be a great investment. If not maintained it can be your worst nightmare. I would not purchase one from a company that doesn't have a spare parts inventory and the tech support and service agreements to fully support the machine.

From contributor H:
I have the SCMI K201. It is a great machine and can run on either single or three phase - mine runs on single phase. It is also very portable and is on wheels. I bought it with high frequency motors which ran cost up to around $19,000 in todayís dollars (I paid $15k about 5-6 yrs. ago). It is a good machine but only has two stations and no buffing. I have not found this a problem but some guys would. Also, you need to understand a technical point about the K201 compared to the Holz-Her and Brandt. The K201 has a 90 degree edge cut-off saw which is the cheaper way to build a cut-off saw. It cuts into the panel occasionally a very tiny bit. The Holz-Her, Brandt, Cehisa etc. have an angled cut-off saw which cuts the edgebanding off at an angle avoiding any cutting into the panel. This is a technical advantage which is a bit more costly to manufacture.

I have had zero problems with the K201 and the 90 degree cut-off has been no problem to us at all. I chose the K201 because it was the smallest bander on wheels I could find that still did a professional job.

From contributor F:
Thanks for the affirmation. It sounds like it'll fit into a garage workshop just fine.

From contributor I:
A Holz-Her 1310 or 1315 is also a good machine although I can't imagine one in a garage. Remember, you need a good 8' at each end.

From contributor H:
I've had my main shop in a garage for many years - it is in one now about 550 sq ft. I have another 800 sq. ft. outside under roof. We live in Vegas where you can work outside nearly every day of year. I am going to add 150 sq ft. over next few months. It will help in not stumbling or crawling on the floor to reach a switch. The K201 works fine in shop - I very rarely only have to move it a few feet or open the garage door for 8' pieces. I really like it operating on single phase; although I have 3-phase (rotary phase converter) I don't connect it to 3-phase because it is much simpler in single. I have had maybe one or two minor problems with the machine in 6yrs. Of course, I use it very infrequently now. If a person could find a used machine like mine he would have a brand new machine. I have used only two bags of glue in 6 years.

From the original questioner:
Thanks for the valuable input gentlemen. There is a recurring theme in your responses. I will investigate a higher end starter edgebander as suggested. Used is always a consideration, but buying someone elseís junk is obviously the pitfall.

From contributor F:
To contributor H: Out of curiosity, what are you using now for edgebanding if you're not using the K201? Is it true that the housing market in Vegas is booming these days?

From contributor H:
I'm using my edgebander. I'm just not building a lot of cabs last few years. I have transferred to mostly service for a major builder and don't sell much in way of cabinetry. Vegas is booming and has been for many years. Most all cabinetry is big box guys like Merrilat. There are a lot of shops here also.

From contributor A:
If I was buying a bander I'd make sure it would do the job without having to do hand cleanup after banding. For PVC a profile scraping station helps a lot. Buffing helps with both PVC and HPL. Solid wood benefits from having both rough and fine trims. Heavier machines will handle thicker banding - 3mm pvc, 1/2"+ wood, multi-layer veneer banding.

From contributor J:
I own a Cehisa ep-9, 3mm capacity and instant changeover with PLC control. It is a great machine, with good tech support and easy to use. The Pro-7 is a baby version, but totally industrial and is around 19,000.00. 1-5 kitchens a week is not a small shop in my opinion and you should look into a new machine that can handle the volume. I owned a Holz-Her 1403 and would not recommend it for this kind of volume. It's very touchy and the router motors will die fast.

From the original questioner:
To contributor L: I am just assuming that glue pot method is far superior to hot air. Any thoughts on that?

From contributor J:
To the original questioner: Call Akhurst machinery and see if they have the bi-matic starter machine. I moved here 2 years ago from Montreal and had a bi-matic for 3 years. It is the same technology as Cehisa although itís an Italian machine. It is very user friendly with good industrial trimmers. Buffer is only needed for 3mm PVC as is scraper, so you can do well with a good end and top and bottom trimming machine. Hot air machines do not give you the flexibility of edgebanding and strength of bond. If you buy used make sure the machine is checked out by a good mechanic.

From contributor K:
This topic comes up frequently on this site. Do a search in the knowledge base under 'edgebanders' or 'hot air edgebanders.' It is always an active debate. In short, the more industrial edgebanders have stronger internal components. I would skip the suggestion about the Edgemaster, AMTEM-GP. I doubt that it will do one kitchen a month for very long. This is a light duty machine. More than likely the trimmers are router trimmer motors, the guillotine will not stand the abuse of PVC, and the pressure beam will be light and flimsy, not to mention that it is fed by a powerfeeder, not a track system. There is a big gap between these light-duty, hot air type banders and the industrial ones. Some of the things you should look for are high frequency motors for the saws and trimmers, a conveyor feed system (like the tracks on a tank or bull dozer), a strong guillotine that will withstand 3mm PVC, the option to feed strips, and buy bigger than what you need right now. Just like people know not to buy ocean front property in Arizona, many in the industry know that it is risky to buy a used bander. These are very complicated machines, and if they are not maintained well then you have a boat anchor. I have a $20K example that I purchased from a nationally advertising machinery broker as an example. The reason you want to buy for your future needs is because of what I just mentioned. If you buy a bander, use it - you may have a very hard time selling it.

Also consider the capacity that you will be using most. If you plan on sticking with .5 mm, then most anything will do. If you ever want to venture into commercial, then you will want to use 3 mm. If you buy a machine that is rated at 3 mm as its highest capacity, know that running it at its limits will accelerate the wear. Even a 3mm Brandt is only designed to run at 3 mm for maybe 4 hours per day. And check to see (make them demonstrate this) if it will run 3 mm wood coil. The feeder must be very strong. I wouldn't skimp on a bander. Get the wrong one and it will cost you in time and money. Think about trying to band a stack of panels and the bander messes up every 2nd or 3rd one. You have to pay for new material, time to remake, and then there is the time that you could have spent installing instead of remaking. Speaking from experience, a bad bander, even if it comes with a hefty price, costs more than it appears.

You might want to increase your budget some more. Frameless is expensive to get into, but costly if you don't have the right equipment. You need a good slider - look at Martin (from an Altendorf owner). And look at the Gannomat Mentor. Maggi and Conquest seem to have good machines as well.

From contributor L:
All the advice you are getting is good. You have to decide if it is time to walk or run. The Glue pot will allow you to purchase auto-edgebanding which will give you a much greater selection of colors and options at a lower price per foot, where the Edgemaster's niche is as a starter for glue pot edgebanders. It is not an advanced machine like others have been talking about. It is a basic no frills starter unit that if you stay in the area of its strength you will be happy. Is it the last edgebander you will need? No. It is good for thin, 1mm max edgebanding. If you plan to do laminate strips, I have shops that have told me they were able to tweek their machines so they could do the strips, but I don't think you would be happy with this machine if you're planning to use anything other than standard edgebanding.

We do sell the big banders, but are you ready for that level at this time? The way some of my shops purchase advanced machinery is when the application comes up in a job, like 3 mm curved wood edges, they would bid the cost of the machine, $30,000.00 or whatever, into their quote, deducting for their estimated labor savings then include the cost of the machine in the down payment. Then, once they get up to speed on the new machine, they would sell the beginner machine to a shop that needs it.

From contributor K:
Have you used edgebanders, or just been to the training? It's a light-weight machine, but even at the low side of 8 kitchens a month it won't last. The problem with these machines is that when the business starts to take off, these light-weight machines begin to wear down or wear out. I am sure you care about your customers. But please don't recommend this machine for anything more than occasional use. This might work in a shop that wants to band the edge of their shelves, but to put it in production, even in a small shop, is a waste of resources. Chesia is a good brand. How much more for a unit with hf motors and a conveyor track? What another $10K, $200 month for 4 years? Now take your $10K unit, and add another $25K and spread that out over the same amount of time. What's the difference - that $10K lump sitting in the corner. I am sure that you get hammered by us poor cabinetmakers. But this is one area that you don't want to skimp on. Do your customers a favor and help them understand the true cost of owning an edgebander.

From contributor K:
My mistake.. Mouse finger got happy. First post should read, "8 kitchens per month."

From contributor L:
To contributor K: I hear what youíre saying. I sell the Cehisa brand. It is a quality product and certainly more heavy duty than the Edgemaster. The original questioner was looking for a starter glue pot unit under $15,000.00. That's the Edgemaster. Not knowing contributor Hís situation, I can only offer information to help him make the right choice for his shop. I did not tell him to go out and get it. I told him to check it out and see if it meets his needs. I suggested he purchase a used machine if money is the issue. I find the most useful information comes from shop owners like you. That is the information I pass on, and why I advise everyone to do their homework, contact the owners of these machines, find a shop near by, call and ask if you can stop by their shop to witness these machines in operation so as to ascertain first hand what each machine is capable of. I find most shop owners in this industry are extremely knowledgeable and helpful, especially when it comes to an advanced machine like an edgebander. Just look at the response to this inquiry. You guys are truly incredible.

From contributor M:
The advice on not going cheap is very sound. You need a quality machine to do quality work, and you need to be able to depend on it every day. If your edgebander is running right youíre saving time and making money. I opted for a 5yr old Homag - it's got more features than I need and it has more capacity than I can use now but that gives me room to grow. Remember if you buy cheap, you buy twice.

From contributor N:

To contributor L: Keep on giving that advice. We poor cabinet makers sometimes have to walk before we run and spend tens of thousands to fix one bottleneck in our production machinery, sometimes is in the realm of fantasy. No doubt the big bucks edgebanders are the best way to go if you could justify the expense, but how many hours a month will contributor H use this edgebander - eight hours, ten, maybe twelve? I could think of a lot of capital upgrades that would be possible by purchasing a temporary solution for ten thousand rather than spending thirty thousand. My job is to stretch those equipment dollars to where they will do the most good while also thinking about solving quality, safety and improving through put. Some times going cheap can be a solution.

From contributor K:
To contributor N: Check the feed speed and compare light versus industrial. Or consider this when you have to nurse a worn-out light duty when you are already behind - buy one machine at $25K or 2 machines at $35K. Now ask yourself, in the first couple of years, would I have really missed that money? Actually, you are paying for it when you buy the second machine. You need to understand this - a good machine doesn't cost, it pays." If you are doing this as a sideline or a hobby, then this doesn't apply. But if you are making your living making cabinets, then a good machine will make you more profitable, not cost you money. That is the purpose of these machines, to make it faster and more accurate so you can do more and make more. It's like paying more for a car that gets better gas mileage. Sure it cost more in the beginning, but the cost of operation is less than another car with poorer gas mileage. Now don't get hung up on the analogy and start talking about cars. A good bander will make you more money and cost you less than a light-duty one.

From contributor N:
To contributor K: No doubt what you say is very true but most of us cabinetmakers are conservative with money. Let me rephrase that, most of still in business are conservative with money. Spending that much money just doesn't make sense for someone starting out. Edgebanding is important, but only is only one process in many and chances are the original questioner will be doing face frame as well as frameless. I noticed in your reply that my question wasn't answered, and that is how many hours monthly will this machine run? You seem very knowledgeable about edgebanders, feed speeds and such, so perhaps you could tell us what a high end machine will produce in an hour versus a cheap one. We all fully understand the difference in quality, longevity and ease of use, so letís leave that out and just focus on how many hours the original questioner will need this machine per month. I would spend thirty thousand in a heart beat for a top end machine, but only if other bottle necks were taken care of first. And I keep seeing a recurring theme, good edgebanders are expensive and will last a long time, but they shouldn't be bought used because odds are they will be a boat anchor. Wow, my head is spinning - will they last a long time or not?

As a start up, the original questioner will have many things to learn and many basic problems like getting good help and training them, plus making all the mistakes like we all do at first. If you read his post he clearly states that he is starting out and has a budget. The original questioner also states that he would love to have a high end machine, but clearly budget is as important as quality and longevity. I would bet that he is smart enough not to bet the farm and spend more than common sense allows. My point is this, no doubt the most expensive bander could be a good investment, but other posters have given other points of view. The original questioner will be better helped with a wide variety of opinions to choose from.

From contributor A:
When does an edgebander pay? Here's the result of observations in our shop. These do not apply to all shops and the variables are many. Hand banding HPL 6 to 8 minutes per strip (rip, contact strip, double coat edge, place and roll, route, file, clean glue). Medium duty bander putting 2mm PVC on: Typical Euro-kitchen/bath job, 25 doors, 15 drawers, 70 case and shelf edges. 230 total edges+- (no drawer box edges) Assume 20 minutes bander non-banding time and 5 strips per minute (slow bander) = 46 min run time + 20 min. setup/cleanup = 66 minutes for the job. At a cost of $1/ minute for bander and operator and $0.50 for a helper we have a cost of $99 to band the job no materials.

For hand banding HPL at 7 min./ pc and a shop rate of $45/hr we have 19.17 hours or a cost of $862! Even if you play with these numbers some it's still a no brainer. Doing only the case and shelf edges (70 parts) 20 +14 =34 min on the bander= $34, Hand banding HPL 70*7=490 min/60=8.17hr at $45 = $367. You still save $300/ kitchen! This assumed material costs are equal - in reality the automatic banding materials are cheaper even if you only use 1/2 roll of banding and throw the other 1/2 in the dumpster. Anyone want to debate the value of a bander?

From contributor N:
To contributor A: We don't do much laminate work anymore, but your example is a good one. No doubt anyone who needs laminate edging needs a bander and a good one. Contributor A has pointed out how the advice we give people can depend so much on exactly what they are using the machine for. I haven't thought about using the machine for banding laminate cabinets because they are so rare in our area. Obviously contributor A uses a lot of laminate edgebanding, thus two completely different points of view.

With wood tape, on an average kitchen, our cheapy bander will take three hours with our labor/clean up guy doing 95% of the work. No doubt the quality is better on a big machine, but spending thousands to produce the job a couple hours sooner is a luxury I look forward to some day. Shop helper, three hours x shop rate for helpers= a hundred bucks for the job. Sounds like I could save sixty or seventy bucks per kitchen (and get the option for thicker banding, pvc or laminate strips).

Down side is the lease payment of $500 to $1000 per month, even if work slows up. Six kitchens per month = $360 to $420 in savings, almost enough to pay for the machine, plus the extra work the helper could do in the time savings. Wait, it will take a skilled, responsible worker smart enough not to abuse the machine.

I can't wait till we have the extra cash to afford a good edgebander, but definitely a luxury for a start up shop. But if I get back into laminate, I will take contributor Aís well thought out advice.

From contributor B:
This is a great post! You guys have brought a lot of different opinions to the table. And as usual there is no simple answer. I've been thinking about an edgebander for the last year or so but the costs are the biggest issue. For you guys that are using banders, when did you buy your first machine?

I am a one man shop with modest equipment, and I couldn't get two kitchens done in a month unless I started buying doors and drawers. I don't plan on doing that right now, but can see benefit in a bander. So I guess my question for those of you responding to this post is how many started with smaller banders and upgraded, and how many started with bigger machines. I've read the arguments and logic for both, but I would love to know what your real world experience is?

From contributor O:
When I started out I ironed on edgebanding. After about a year I bought the most expensive edgebander I could afford: a Cehisa EP3. Glue pot, no trimming, no feed. I ran thousands of feet of pvc and veneer edgebanding through it, spent a lot of hours trimming and filing. It was well worth the money - it saved a lot of time, but not nearly as much as a real edgebander, because of the lack of trimming and the amount of time it took to heat up.

I replaced it recently with a used Brandt (I think I used the Cehisa for 15 years). I wish I had been able to do it years ago. It is much faster, heats up faster, put the board thru and it is very close to being done. No hand trimming is needed, just some cleanup. But I am like many here: I am very conservative about large investments, since jobs are not steady. Sometimes there is no work, and I have to prepare for those times by keeping my costs down. The other way to look at it: with a better, faster, longer lasting bander you can make more money in less time. So if your experience shows you that not being able to handle the volume of work is a bigger problem than sometimes not having enough work to pay a big nut, I would say go for it.

It is a matter of balance and judgment. If you put too much too quickly into good equipment, and you can fail; put too little into good equipment and your ability to make money will be held back by the lack of the tools to get a job out efficiently. Looking back, I would guess that I was too conservative. My work life would have been more profitable had I been able to get better equipment faster. To put it honestly, I am a better craftsman than businessman. Earlier in the thread, someone said something like good tools do not cost money, they make money (or something to that effect). This is true. The couple of times I spent big dollars, I have not regretted it. I leased-to-buy a Streibig and bought the used Brandt, and kicked myself both times for waiting so long. Both tools have made life easier and more profitable.

To the original questioner: If you are just starting a cabinet shop and plan on doing 2-5 kitchens per week, be extremely careful investing in tools. You only know what your market is, and what you are capable of, but 2-5 kitchens a week sounds very optimistic, both for sales and manufacture for a start-up. If you are basing your forecast on promises from a contractor, remember that talk is cheap. But if you do get up and running and are selling and making 2-5 kitchens per week, I will be asking you for advice! 2-5 kitchens per week seems like a lot for a small shop, and not enough for a factory, but there may be those out there that are doing exactly that. Just please check your local market carefully before making large investments based on those consistent sales.

From contributor A:
To contributor N: We don't do a lot of HPL banding but that's what I had comparison times for. You really can't efficiently hand band 2mm PVC, which is what our machine runs most of the time. We run a fair amount of 1.5mm Veneer coil banding and some 1/2 to 5/8" solid wood.

To contributor B: I waited too long to buy a bander but was forced into it by a large job with 1000's of feet of banding.

To contributor O: I agree with you about balance. I have been too slow sometimes to invest in better equipment but I don't like payments. My business hasn't grown very fast but I still have it.

To the original questioner: Don't trust contractors, talk from general contractors is even less valuable than cheap. Spend a lot of time on marketing to get a diversified customer base. If you end up with one major customer heís got you in a very undesirable position. Iíve been there Ė and itís not good.

From the original questioner:
That was a most informative thread gentlemen. Obviously there are many things to consider, as we all know. My partner and I will mull over all your responses in order to make an informed decision. Once again, I thank you for your valuable input and look forward to soliciting more feedback from you in the future.

From contributor G:
"When does an edgebander pay?" "Hand banding HPL 6 to 8 minutes per strip (rip, contact strip, double coat edge, place and roll, route, file, clean glue).Assume 20 minutes bander non-banding time and 5 strips per minute.Anyone want to debate the value of a bander?"

Hand applying, routing, filing, cleaning - are you kidding? I wouldn't still be in business if I had to pay someone to do all that work. There was a time that all of that work was done by hand, but how many hand edges do you need to apply before you call it quits and automate the process? 100, 1000, 5000 hand edges?

My operators come in and immediately turn on the power and the glue pot to heat up. In the 10 minutes of heat-up time, they can grease/lube, inspect, maintain, and prep their area. After the glue pot and glue roller heat up, we can feed a part into the bander every five seconds with perfect edge trimming and a buffing station to clean off any possible remaining glue residue. The edges have consistency that cannot be matched with a hand router and file manually. My smaller Homag can run .018 through 3mm PVC, HPL, veneer, and wood strips all at the same feed rate. Hand trimming and filing are extremely time consuming and cannot be done efficiently. For someone in the long-term wood industry, an edgebander is an inevitable investment.

Compare your costs using this example:
Cost of 1 bag of Hotmelt glue, divided by # edges applied at bander. (no wasted Hotmelt glue)
Cost of 1 Container of contact cement/adhesive, divided by the # edges hand applied. (a good amount of wasted adhesive, as most usually apply adhesive to the entire width of edge, including area to be trimmed.)

Shooting from the hip - I'd say the cost of the bander HotMelt will be much, much less than the cost of the contact cement/adhesive. Over a good period of time, this savings could be used as a downpayment on a lease for a high-volume machine. This is one of many, many reasons considered before making the giant step towards purchasing my first high-volume Brandt back in 1992. Since then, good investments like the Brandt have led me down the road to further investments like custom Homag milling/profiling edgebanders, and simple Homags for applying standard .018 PVC all day long. My advice is - buy a new quality bander and never look back!

From contributor Q:
If you're just getting started, the advice about watching your wallet is great. If you will be building a kitchen a day or a kitchen a week consider a Holz-Her for one reason. The machine functions about the same as a glue pot machine but no glue pot to clean; much faster heat up time; made for start and stop operation. There are a many used Holz-Hers out there with a lot of productive life left so check it out closely. The Mini-Max, small SCM and the small Brant machines won't disappoint you, but learn all there is to know about the Holz-Her cartridge machines before you open that wallet.

From contributor R:
I just started using my used SCMI 20F which is way more bander than I need but is very nice. Does anyone know the current rate for to have edgebanding outsourced? I would love to take advantage of my productivity and do some work for other smaller shops whom may be ironing on still? I am in Spokane Washington.

From contributor A:
Productivity: For those who haven't run a bander, here's what our mid range bander did today - Morning, 100 small display table tops 4 edges in 1.5mm maple; case edges, doors drawer fronts, shelves for a gift shop in .5mm PVC. Afternoon, shelves for a large job (there are 920 HPL shelves to be banded 4 sides, 2 pallet loads of 2mm PVC banding) All the shelves were cut this morning on the panel saw. The bander operator came to me after 4 hr of banding and said he had picked up 15,000#'s of shelves this afternoon. He weighed one on a UPS scale, all were the same size (18 x 45"). He's about 1/2 done so it will take about 9 hr to put on 3600 edges!
(9 seconds/edge)If that were done w/contact @ 5min/edge=300 hr!
bander+operator+catcher @$90/hr=$810/3600=$0.23/band - clean no glue cleanup!
3600*5(min)/60=300hr*45(shop rate)=$13,500-810=$12,690 value of a mid range bander for a day - versus hand banding.

This was not a typical day! Most days the bander will run only 2-3 hr and probably put on 4 or 5 different kinds of banding. It is still a real productivity bargain. With about 4,000 hr on the meter, repair parts and tooling have cost less than $1/hr. Banders are simple machines arranged along a chain that feeds the work past each in succession. Viewing the bander as a row of simple machines can quickly isolate problems. When troubleshooting you can eliminate half of the machines by running a part half way and stopping. A few more times and you've located the problem area.

From contributor G:
Check this out - I am at home and I don't have my numbers in front of me, but I remember negotiating a great deal. I purchase standard stock .018" white PVC edgebanding from Woodtape-Canplast for my standard line of cabinetry. We run a Homag 10 hours a day on just this edgebanding. I purchase about 400 rolls at a time. We receive them on pallets. The cost savings between purchasing 200 rolls vs. 400 rolls at a time, is equal to the cost of the 200 rolls by themself. In essence, I get hundreds of rolls of free edgebanding every time I order.