Adhesives Forum

You are not logged in. [ Login ] Why log in
(NOTE: Login is not required to post)

Delamination in red oak newels

3/22/15       
Kim Vedros  Member

Website: http://www.stair-newels.com

These are 3 1/2" red oak newels that were made in my south Louisiana shop (cold and fairly humid winter) and shipped to North Dakota. It's obvious that the M. Content in the 8/4 oak pieces has been reduced. This is not the first time this has happened particularly with oak.
It seems to me the oak should have split with a good glue joint (using Titebond 2 - both surfaces jointed with sharp knives) instead of pulling apart as it has done here. BTW my shop temperature was about 60F. No chalkiness was seen on the pieces after an over night set.
So my question is, why is the oak not splitting here instead of this failure on the glue line? The glued joint is not, in this case, stronger than the wood


View higher quality, full size image (3264 X 1836)

3/23/15       #2: Delamination in red oak newels ...
RichardP

Why titebond 2? Wrong glue. titebond original would be much better. I like sawn surface better than jointed for glue joint.

3/23/15       #3: Delamination in red oak newels ...
Gene Wengert -WoodDoc

The issue is that the two piece were not close enough to each other when glued. For example, when you ripped them, if the core was wet, it would dry and shrink enough to form a gap that you could not span and glue.

It is not the adhesive, but a gap.

Note that the best procedure is to rip and then plane and glue within 15 minutes or less in the winter when shops are very dry.

Need more?

3/23/15       #4: Delamination in red oak newels ...
Kim Vedros

Website: http://stair-newels.com

So Doc
What you're describing is pretty much my practice. Everything I machine for gluing is glued immediately after.

3/23/15       #5: Delamination in red oak newels ...
Gene Wengert-WoodDoc

I am 99.9% certain that the issue was your dry shop and the wood being a bit wetter than the shop's EMC. So, the wood surface dried and shrank a few 0.001" after planing and before you got the glue on and the pressure. It was so dry this winter in our shops due to the cold air outside being heated, which drops the humidity.

I had one very similar situation and when they glued within 5 minutes, they eliminated the problem. Note that even if you apply the pressure, if the air is really dry, the surface will shrink before the glue sets. TB II does cure quickly however.

3/23/15       #6: Delamination in red oak newels ...
Tom Gardiner

Titebond II is an appropriate adhesive in my opinion. My experience with oak is that joints require more glue than non ring porous woods such as birch or maple. Oak seems to drink up glue. To ensure a good joint in oak I like to see a generous squeeze out along the entire joint. I spread my glue over the entire surface with a spatula and don't rely on the clamp pressure to squeeze the glue from a glue bottle bead. If you aren't spreading your glue it may be. part of the problem especially since the splitting seems to be mostly confined to the rope molded area.

3/23/15       #7: Delamination in red oak newels ...
Kim Vedros  Member

Website: http://www.stair-newels.com

Tom
i don't think that is the issue. i have a pizzi type glue applicator. Everything gets a generous and evenly spread glue film

3/23/15       #8: Delamination in red oak newels ...
Tom Gardiner

Titebond II is an appropriate adhesive in my opinion. My experience with oak is that joints require more glue than non ring porous woods such as birch or maple. Oak seems to drink up glue. To ensure a good joint in oak I like to see a generous squeeze out along the entire joint. I spread my glue over the entire surface with a spatula and don't rely on the clamp pressure to squeeze the glue from a glue bottle bead. If you aren't spreading your glue it may be. part of the problem especially since the splitting seems to be mostly confined to the rope molded area.

3/23/15       #9: Delamination in red oak newels ...
Tom Gardiner

Hmmm. My only other question is how long between glue up and turning? The reason I ask is the rope turning in particular opens up the wood to a large area of end grain. This will speed up moisture loss. If the machining was done before full cure then it is possible the wood could be tending to dry and stress the joint before reaching full glue strength.

3/23/15       #10: Delamination in red oak newels ...
Kim Vedros  Member

Website: http://www.stair-newels.com

Tom
I typically wait over night before machining.

3/23/15       #11: Delamination in red oak newels ...
Gene Wengert-WoodDoc

There is indeed a lot of stress when a round dries. However, TB II gets much of its strength in the first 12 hours. By 24 hours, you are real close to 100%.

Note that the open cracks indicate drying. My opinion is that they dried slightly before gluing...the maximum gap when gluing is just 0.006", so it does not take much to get a weak joint.

If there was a gap, you would have likely noted the lack or small amount of squeeze out, as mentioned in a previous post.

3/24/15       #12: Delamination in red oak newels ...
rich c.

Would a 3 piece lamination work better? Odd number of laminations for balance? It sure wouldn't look better for the rope turning though.

3/24/15       #13: Delamination in red oak newels ...
Tom Gardiner

A three piece glue up adds to machine time and detracts from the appearance. I think it is a matter of starting with drier wood particularly when you are shipping to such a dry climate in the winter. When you think about it, the conditions are a perfect storm- material machined in moderate coastal climate, lots of open end grain, shipped unfinished to the driest location. I am not saying it can't be done but you will have the best chance of success by starting with wood bone dry.

3/25/15       #14: Delamination in red oak newels ...
Kim Vedros  Member

Website: http://www.stair-newels.com

Thanks to all for your comments. This has happened before as I said particularly with oak and in the winter. My other beef with oak (especially 8/4) has been honey comb splits but that is another topic. Thanks Doc and all

3/25/15       #15: Delamination in red oak newels ...
David R Sochar Member

Website: http://www.stair-newels.com

You mention the honeycomb in 8/4 Oak, and that is a drying problem. It stands to reason (maybe...) that a drying problem is at the root of the open joints also. I have heard that even diligent kiln management can still make for problem 8/4 Oak.

When I worked in a stair shop, we bought hundreds of Red Oak squares - 4x4 - from a vendor, and they were always glued for thickness and width from 4/4 stock. These still occasionally had or developed an open joint, but they were minimal. We had the squares turned by a turning mill, or turned them ourselves. The turning did not seem to make things worse (or better).

3/25/15       #16: Delamination in red oak newels ...
Kim Vedros  Member

Website: stair-newels.com

David
I dread whenever I get an order for oak. Probably 20% of the 8/4 shows signs of honey comb. I don't mind gluing up small turning blanks with 4/4 but most of my blanks are 5 1/2" to 7". I'm not sure that a piece with signs of honey combed, however, are less dry than other pieces without.

3/25/15       #17: Delamination in red oak newels ...
David R Sochar Member

Website: https://stair-newels.com

Others know better than I, but I believe the honeycomb is a defect of the drying process, in that it is rushed - "too hot, too fast' if I recall. It has to do with lower energy costs to dry the material.

Kiln drying, the schedules and potential problems are a part of the voodoo I have not gotten into, but I have dealt with some problems. Stands to reason (again -?) that if 8/4 is hard - and expensive - to dry correctly, that it may come out of the kiln on the wet side rather than over dry, and contribute/cause the problems you have.

3/25/15       #18: Delamination in red oak newels ...
Gene Wengert-WoodDoc

You should not have more than 3% honeycomb in oak, so you comments about 20% indicate that the wood is not being dried correctly. If the 8/4 is air dried first, then the air drying yard is too fast of a drying situation (as David mentioned). Virtually 100% of honeycomb in oak is a surface check first; prevent the checks and you will prevent honeycomb. Checks originate at very high MCs (above 45% MC for white oak and above 50% MC for red oak) when the wood is dried too quickly (usually too low an RH and too much air flow).

You can hire an expert to examine your drying practices (like me) or you can attend an advanced class on oak drying and learn more about what is going on. The kiln, if you are going into the kiln under 40% MC, is not the cause of honeycomb, so do not worry about the kiln or schedule. Instead spend your time with what is going on at the high MCs.

of course, honeycomb does not cause glue line failures, but it does indicate that the drying process is not perfect, leading me to question if the final MC is also a bit off.

3/26/15       #19: Delamination in red oak newels ...
Kim Vedros  Member

Website: stair-newels.com

I buy from three different hardwood suppliers and a significant amount of the the 8/4 is HC. Of course they may be all buying from the same mill for all I know. I would prefer to use 4/4 and 6/4 but it is not practical for large face to face glue ups.
I've heard of microwave drying and thought maybe that was what is going on since microwave heats from the inside. But my info maybe false.

3/26/15       #20: Delamination in red oak newels ...
Gene Wengert-WoodDoc

Probably 99.9% of 8/4 oak is dried by air drying first. So, if the weather for one month is very bad--low RH, warm, windy--then a lot of the oak put on the year at that time will be at risk of damage. So, it would not be unusual to see that several suppliers in a region would have the same issue. But, it is only those suppliers that consistently follow poor air drying practices that will have lots of honeycomb throughout the year. However, at the same time these folks are having trouble, there are many others that are careful and do not have any issues in any weather (or maybe just 2% of the pieces with some honeycomb). In short, 8/4 has a much higher risk of HC than 4/4, so the practices that work for 4/4 in an air yard need to be modified when drying 8/4. The best suggestion is to air dry 8/4 oak in a partially closed shed.

In your case, being in Louisiana, I would be concerned about southern oak, as we do know that southern oak has a much greater risk of checking and HC than northern or Appalachian. (If the rings are more than 1/4" wide, then we class it as southern oak, from a drying perspective.) In fact, in the South, we often see that mills will not cut thick oak in the three summer months, as even the best practices in air drying may not fully control checking and HC.

3/26/15       #21: Delamination in red oak newels ...
Kim Vedros  Member

Website: stair-newels.com

I only buy Appalachian. One of the suppliers I buy from Netterville in Mississippi has a large kiln and mill but they buy Appalachian. I don't know that they sell Southern oak except in 4/4 - probably for the same reasons you cite

4/18/15       #22: Delamination in red oak newels ...
Gene Wengert-WoodDoc

A pretty good way to separate App. oak from So. oak is to look at the rings spacing. If 1/4" or wider rings, then So.

  • Post a Response to this thread
  • notify me of responses to this topic
  • To receive email notification of additions to this forum thread,
    enter your name and email address, and then click the
    "Keep Me Posted" button below.

    Please Note: If you have posted a message or response,
    do not submit this request ... you are already signed up
    to receive notification!

    Your Name:
    E-Mail Address:
    Enter the correct numbers into the field below:
     

    Date of your Birth:



    Return to top of page

    Buy & Sell Exchanges | Forums | Galleries | Site Map

    FORUM GUIDELINES: Please review the guidelines below before posting at WOODWEB's Interactive Message Boards (return to top)

  • WOODWEB is a professional industrial woodworking site. Hobbyist and homeowner woodworking questions are inappropriate.
  • Messages should be kept reasonably short and on topic, relating to the focus of the forum. Responses should relate to the original question.
  • A valid email return address must be included with each message.
  • Advertising is inappropriate. The only exceptions are the Classified Ads Exchange, Machinery Exchange, Lumber Exchange, and Job Opportunities and Services Exchange. When posting listings in these areas, review the posting instructions carefully.
  • Subject lines may be edited for length and clarity.
  • "Cross posting" is not permitted. Choose the best forum for your question, and post your question at one forum only.
  • Messages requesting private responses will be removed - Forums are designed to provide information and assistance for all of our visitors. Private response requests are appropriate at WOODWEB's Exchanges and Job Opportunities and Services.
  • Messages that accuse businesses or individuals of alleged negative actions or behavior are inappropriate since WOODWEB is unable to verify or substantiate the claims.
  • Posts with the intent of soliciting answers to surveys are not appropriate. Contact WOODWEB for more information on initiating a survey.
  • Excessive forum participation by an individual upsets the balance of a healthy forum atmosphere. Individuals who excessively post responses containing marginal content will be considered repeat forum abusers.
  • Responses that initiate or support inappropriate and off-topic discussion of general politics detract from the professional woodworking focus of WOODWEB, and will be removed.
  • Participants are encouraged to use their real name when posting. Intentionally using another persons name is prohibited, and posts of this nature will be removed at WOODWEB's discretion.
  • Comments, questions, or criticisms regarding Forum policies should be directed to WOODWEB's Systems Administrator
    (return to top).

    Carefully review your message before clicking on the "Send Message" button - you will not be able to revise the message once it has been sent.

    You will be notified of responses to the message(s) you posted via email. Be sure to enter your email address correctly.

    WOODWEB's forums are a highly regarded resource for professional woodworkers. Messages and responses that are crafted in a professional and civil manner strengthen this resource. Messages that do not reflect a professional tone reduce the value of our forums.

    Messages are inappropriate when their content: is deemed libelous in nature or is based on rumor, fails to meet basic standards of decorum, contains blatant advertising or inappropriate emphasis on self promotion (return to top).

    Libel:   Posts which defame an individual or organization, or employ a tone which can be viewed as malicious in nature. Words, pictures, or cartoons which expose a person or organization to public hatred, shame, disgrace, or ridicule, or induce an ill opinion of a person or organization, are libelous.

    Improper Decorum:   Posts which are profane, inciting, disrespectful or uncivil in tone, or maliciously worded. This also includes the venting of unsubstantiated opinions. Such messages do little to illuminate a given topic, and often have the opposite effect. Constructive criticism is acceptable (return to top).

    Advertising:   The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not an advertising venue. Companies participating in a Forum discussion should provide specific answers to posted questions. WOODWEB suggests that businesses include an appropriately crafted signature in order to identify their company. A well meaning post that seems to be on-topic but contains a product reference may do your business more harm than good in the Forum environment. Forum users may perceive your references to specific products as unsolicited advertising (spam) and consciously avoid your web site or services. A well-crafted signature is an appropriate way to advertise your services that will not offend potential customers. Signatures should be limited to 4-6 lines, and may contain information that identifies the type of business you're in, your URL and email address (return to top).

    Repeated Forum Abuse: Forum participants who repeatedly fail to follow WOODWEB's Forum Guidelines may encounter difficulty when attempting to post messages.

    There are often situations when the original message asks for opinions: "What is the best widget for my type of shop?". To a certain extent, the person posting the message is responsible for including specific questions within the message. An open ended question (like the one above) invites responses that may read as sales pitches. WOODWEB suggests that companies responding to such a question provide detailed and substantive replies rather than responses that read as a one-sided product promotion. It has been WOODWEB's experience that substantive responses are held in higher regard by our readers (return to top).

    The staff of WOODWEB assume no responsibility for the accuracy, content, or outcome of any posting transmitted at WOODWEB's Message Boards. Participants should undertake the use of machinery, materials and methods discussed at WOODWEB's Message Boards after considerate evaluation, and at their own risk. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages it deems inappropriate. (return to top)


  • Forum Posting Help
    Your Name The name you enter in this field will be the name that appears with your post or response (return to form).
    Your Website Personal or business website links must point to the author's website. Inappropriate links will be removed without notice, and at WOODWEB's sole discretion. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    E-Mail Address Your e-mail address will not be publicly viewable. Forum participants will be able to contact you using a contact link (included with your post) that is substituted for your actual address. You must include a valid email address in this field. (return to form)
    Subject Subject may be edited for length and clarity. Subject lines should provide an indication of the content of your post. (return to form)
    Thread Related Link and Image Guidelines Thread Related Links posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should point to locations that provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related Link that directs visitors to an area with inappropriate content will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    Thread Related File Uploads Thread Related Files posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. Video Files: acceptable video formats are: .MOV .AVI .WMV .MPEG .MPG .MP4 (Image Upload Tips)   If you encounter any difficulty when uploading video files, E-mail WOODWEB for assistance. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related File that contains inappropriate content will be removed, and uploaded files that are not directly related to the message thread will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links, files, or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)