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Message Thread:

How would you solve this problem

12/2/20       
John T. Member

I built this table about 3 years ago, knowing at the time that the top ring was a risk for the joints separating with seasonal movement. Sure enough, 2 of them did after the first winter, and nearly all of them have at least small cracks now after 3 years. There are 12 segments to the ring, which are about 4-1/2" wide and joined together with a spline 1" deep and glued with T-88 epoxy.

Knowing that I have again proven that wood moves and mitered joints fail how would you go about making this ring? The only way I can think to do it is by winding a narrow strip of wood around a form, glued with epoxy, to form a spiral ring like you see on the base of some Danish modern chairs. Thanks.

John


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12/2/20       #2: How would you solve this problem ...
Matt Calnen

One of two things I can think of. One of the first things I was taught about making furniture is if you can’t hide it, accentuate it. Perhaps rout a shallow recess over the joints and place a piece of brass over the joint with eased edges.

Or, rip up a board and keep the plies in the order you ripped them and epoxy them up around a form to make new top boards. This way the joints will have grain the moves in the same direction with the joint, not away from it.

12/2/20       #3: How would you solve this problem ...
Jared

Can you describe the method you used for the epoxy?

12/2/20       #5: How would you solve this problem ...
John T. Member

I cut the joinery in the ends of the segments for the top with my horizontal router mortiser, with no additional threatment. The splines were planed, then sanded with 100 grit for an easy sliding fit. I mixed up the T-88 epoxy according to the directions, by weight using a gram scale. I applied glue to all surfaces then assembled the ring in two half sections on a template, then glued the two half sections together in the same manner. I used no clamps other than shims to maintain alignment of the parts to the template during glue up.

John

12/2/20       #6: How would you solve this problem ...
Jared

You didn't mention if you thickened the epoxy, which is crucial for strong joints. Wet out contacting surfaces with unthickened, then add colloidal silica to the remaining epoxy until your mix has standing peaks, then brush onto the previously wetted out areas.

In your case, I would have added a layer or 2 of fiberglass on the top ring.

12/2/20       #8: How would you solve this problem ...
John T. Member

No, I didn't thicken the epoxy. The directions for T-88 make no mention of that, although I know it's often recommended by other epoxy manufacturers. Rereading System 3's discussion about epoxy with outdoor furniture suggests they expect failure if the joints cycle with exposure to water. This table was covered when not in use, but still experienced large swings in RH and temperature throughout the year.

Are you suggesting this joint will survive 10 years or more by using thickened epoxy?

John

12/2/20       #9: How would you solve this problem ...
Jared

I wouldn't be pinned down to guarantee survivability because of too many uncontrollable variables, but adding insurance with each additional step mitigates against failure. Unthickened epoxy is a good start, but add thickened and joint strength increases tremendously. To mitigate (important: not prevent, just retard) moisture transfer in and out of the rest of the part, seal with an epoxy designed for coating.

12/2/20       #10: How would you solve this problem ...
David R Sochar Member

Website: http://www.acornwoodworks.com

Two things:

First, what was the moisture content when you built? What is it now? Most hardwoods are shipped to you at 6-8% MC. Living outside, the wood will increase to 12%, depending upon location. If you used interior dried hardwood, then that is 75% of your cause.

Second, which direction did the grain run in your splines? Across the joint is the right answer, so the fibers will bridge the joint, not align with it. I guess I see end grain from the photo.

And third,
Glued joints rely on surface to stay together. Let's try a little math:
Assuming the rails are 3" wide and 1-1/8" thick. This face presents 3.375 s/" of surface. 6.75" with two pieces butted. The splines are 1" x 3" x 1/2". So, by adding the spline, you increased the total surface areas from 6.75 s/" to 16.5 s/" - A notable increase in glue surface.

But, if you had asked me, I would first double the splines - two per joint, at 3/8" thick by 3" wide, by 3" long - yes, 1-1/2" deep dadoes. Now, we are at 21.375" of surface per joint.

Your 1/2" x 1/2" dadoes get 1/3 of their surface from the bottom of the joint - less holding grip there with end grain to end grain. The 1-1/2" deep dadoes have 8 times the prime gluable surface than 1/2 deep dado has. I think that matters.

Note - I accept no responsibility for reckless/wrong math. I did not get into this business to amaze strangers with my prowess.

12/2/20       #11: How would you solve this problem ...
rich c

Is that an outdoor table, or just on the deck for the picture? If outdoor, it'll go way over 12% after a week of rain. The best way to reduce movement is to go to a much narrower ring. It'll take a new piece of glass, but an 1 1/2" wide ring would cut the movement in half. If you laminate a ring, I would go with two half rings instead of a spiral, then have a half lap joint for the rings to increase glue area.

12/2/20       #13: How would you solve this problem ...
John T. Member

David, the Sapele I used to build the table was at the same moisture content as outdoors when I took it into my shop to build it. On the order of 10% IIRC. My shop is at 8 - 9% in the summer. If you look closely you'll see that the splines run the correct way. Nothing has broken; the joints have just opened up. Are you suggesting two splines across the joint would survive 10 years outdoors? Some of the joints have opened up 1/8" at the toe, while being almost tight at the heal. I don't think there is any glue that will prevent that from happening. If it did I think the ring would take on a dish shape in order to relieve the stress.

Rich, yes it's an outdoor table but is covered with a vented vinyl table cover so it's not exposed to direct rain. No way it's getting a new piece of glass. That thing cost a fortune.

Has anyone built a glued splined ring that has survived outdoors? The table is my design but not the splined ring joinery. That came from an article in a well respected magazine. I was suspicious from the beginning, well founded as it turns out.

The 3/4" thick glass just sits in a rabbet in the ring; no glue. There is 1/8" clearance between the glass and ring all around.

John

12/2/20       #14: How would you solve this problem ...
Mark

Wood moves
We know that
If the joints open enough to let water in, fill them with epoxy to keep it out
It's a beautiful table
Don't lose sleep over it ;-)

12/2/20       #15: How would you solve this problem ...
Tom Gardiner

I would think that the strength of the joint end grain to end grain is poor despite it being epoxy. The effective glue area would be the spline faces - 9 sq in. Double the splines is better. Double their depth even better. Another idea is brick the ring together with two layers. Not as elegant but could be made a feature with a step in the edge profile or dado to mimic the twinned legs.
The two layers would bridge the joints with a strong epoxy bond.

12/2/20       #16: How would you solve this problem ...
Leo G Member

Epoxy is broken down by UV light. You need a coating on it that can prevent water and restricts UV radiation. Personally I stick with West System Epoxy. Definitely wet out the joints until they stay wet. If they won't stay wet thicken it with their microballs. The spline should have been good enough to keep it together, it receives no UV light to break it down.

12/3/20       #17: How would you solve this problem ...
TonyF

John T. :

Nice table. Like Leo, I am a fan of the West System, but the wood bonding instructions for T-88 say to liberally coat the mating surfaces and let stand for 30-45 minutes, and then apply more epoxy to areas that have shown absorption (dry) before joining. I don't know if you did that or not, or if it would have made any difference.

What I like to do for this type of joint (rings, arched doors, etc.) is to make a tongue and groove, with a tenon as an integral part of one piece, and slot the mating piece in a way that leaves about 3/8" thick top and bottom with a 1" deep slot for the integral tenon to fit in to. I will use dowels as well, and the joints done in this manner have survived well, but none of them have been outdoors.

You don't say if you are under obligation to make corrections to this table. If you are, and the ring can be removed from the base, you might try to recut the joints and use one of the methods suggested to reglue the table ring, and recut the inner diameter and the rabbet to accommodate the existing glass. As a simpler solution, perhaps a small "v" through the top of the joints would help make the wood movement less noticeable, if the ring segments are of more or less uniform length, and if this is acceptable with your client.

Sometimes wood is just not the best material for certain applications.

Good luck.
TonyF

12/3/20       #18: How would you solve this problem ...
rescraft

Repurposing materials from another thread, it's easy! Just make it out of MDF.

12/3/20       #19: How would you solve this problem ...
David R Sochar Member

Website: http://www.acornwoodworks.com

I am back with some revised thoughts, and more math.
What is the MC of the table rim now? "Shop is 8-9% in the summer" ?? I think you mean 20% or so. 8-9% is extremely dry to be doing anything, much less working wood.

Yes, the 4-1/2" width could be narrower, to your advantage. And the 1/8" opening at the toe is the best tell of all. I have long taught a thought experiment about miters opening, where and why, and this is a good example of expansion (increase in MC). As the wood gains moisture, it also gains width. The mechanics of the miter will not allow it to open at the heel (unless the wood was shrinking in service) as it gains moisture/dimension.

You can think of each of the segments as expanding outward, away from the inside toes of the miters. If all the joints are open, I would guess the diameter has increased by .250" at least.

If you discount the holding of the epoxy at the end grain (this can be disputed - epoxy can hold on the end grain), and increase the plows to 1.5" deep x 4.5"long, and doubled, then you go from 9 s/" of long grain to long grain (as built) to a whopping 54 s/" of long grain to long grain! Six times as much glued surface!!

Yes, I think that a 3" wide, double splined rim, epoxied will hold up 10 years if it is covered as you describe.

12/3/20       #20: How would you solve this problem ...
BradS

What is the size of the gaps? Thousandths,1/32" or something I can fit a credit card in? If thousandths, I am not sure wood is the correct product for this customer.

Beautiful table. I sure see nothing I would complain about given it is outdoor wood furniture.

12/3/20       #21: How would you solve this problem ...
rich c

How tight were the splines in the slots? Epoxy prefers a much thicker glue line than PVA. If the splines were snug, you may have had a starved joint for epoxy.

12/3/20       #22: How would you solve this problem ...
rich c

Forgot to add, 3/4" glass is shocking! People dancing on the table?

12/3/20       #24: How would you solve this problem ...
Mark B Member

Brad S, He said earlier some of the gaps were open 1/8" at the toe tight at the heel.

12/3/20       #25: How would you solve this problem ...
Mark B Member

To me, if the statement "some of the miters are open 1/8" at the toe and tight at the heel" means 30% (4 of them) that equates to a quantity of movement that no species, nor any change in joinery or increase in glue surface area, could ever attempt to resist. If 4 joints are open nearly 1/8" thats more movement than any spline miter can restrain.

We personaly have some purchased, though high quality, teak tables, chairs, and other furniture, that lives outside year round but on a completely covered screened deck. Nearly zero direct sun exposure (perhaps low off angle at rare times), almost never sees soaking wet (rare horizontal wind blown rain may wet some of it). Its oiled methodically,.. and it moves like crazy.

In my opinion a table like that, with that much intent and care put into the table, needs to be on casters or a mobile base and it lives in an inside home at all times other than when in use outside. A cover, vented or not, while keeping sun and rain off the table may also be a pretty heavy contributor to moisture swings. But Id guess cover or not its a tough one. Increasing the segments by double or more maybe just as a means to spread the 1/2" over more joints that may be able to handle it.

12/3/20       #26: How would you solve this problem ...
John T. Member

David, what I meant was the EMC for wood in my shop was 8 - 9% when I built the table. Outside it was 10 - 11%. This problem manifested in service, not because I started out with a problem. What's the MC of the table now? 10% when I checked it yesterday. I thought it would be higher but that's what the meter showed.

When I glued up the ring I wet all the surfaces, waited at least 30 minutes, and then add some more epoxy before assembling the parts. For those who didn't catch it the first time, the joints were a loose sliding fit so the joints were not starved, nor were they sloppy.

David, I don't think there's room for two splines; the ring is about 1-1/8" thick. Two 1/4" thick splines would only leave 0.2" for the 3 mating parts on the end of each section of the ring. 1.5" long fingers only 0.2" thick feels out of proportion to me. If I stick with the 12 sided splined mitered ring I think the only solution is longer splines.

Tony, I've built several mitered arch moldings for interior doors; never had a problem with any of them. But outdoors with the RH and temperature swings is a whole different animal. I liked your idea of the brick mold approach as it would distribute the forces over the maximum glue area possible. If I build a new ring this may be the approach I'll take. I like your idea of a groove around the rim to hide the joint of the two pieces, too.

If I build a new ring I'll use West Systems if for no other reason than many folks swear by it.

I'm not under any obligation other than my own to replace the ring. But my work is my reputation so I'll make it right.

That 3/4" glass came from a coffee table the owner already owned and wanted this table designed around. It must weigh at least 100 lbs! There is no worry the table is going to blow away in a strong wind.

Thanks everyone for your input. Any additional input is certainly welcome.

John

12/3/20       #27: How would you solve this problem ...
BH Davis  Member

Website: http://www.bhdavis.net

First, nice table. I like the design and it looks very well constructed other than the problem with the top ring.

All the moisture content comments are relatively pointless I'm afraid as it all depends upon how much sunlight the table gets. The moisture change on a shady side of the house location will be different from that on a sunny side with a strong heat sink such as a dark wall or patio surface nearby that is baking the wood.

The only way I know of to successfully produce this is with a double layer ring with the joints offsetting by 50% of the segment length. If the perimeter moulding is 1" thick then you should make two full circles at 1/2" thick and then face glue them together. Again, and importantly, the joints must be offset by 50% of their length.

West system would be my first choice of adhesive for laminating the two layers together although the glue seam between the upper and lower layers will be more visible than with Titebond 2 for example. Titebond 2 should be fine for the splined butt joints. And a single spline, or even a wafer, will be adequate given the double layer construction and 95% of your strength will come from the face to face glue up.

If you feel the layer seam needs to be disguised you could add an edge detail that puts the seam in a sharp transition point on that detail.........say a combination round over with a cove below and the seam at the junction of the two. I know this is a design change but it might make for an acceptable compromise on strength and visual appeal.

BH Davis

12/3/20       #28: How would you solve this problem ...
BH Davis  Member

Website: http://www.bhdavis.net

I'll add another little trick you can do to improve the appearance from the edge.

Using the double layer method you don't actually need any splines at all at the joints. The strength of these joints only needs to be adequate to hold the parts together until the layers are glued together. After that, as I said above, the face to face glue up is where all the strength is located.

So to get a clean edge appearance you can either use buried wafers that don't reach the edge of the final cut out circle segments, or you can go with a straight butt joint.......with a little trickery along the way.

Years ago I discovered that if you "size" an end grain butt joint prior to applying a final layer of glue you end up with a surprisingly strong joint.

Once all the segments are cut to size stack them up next to each other. Then use a finger nail brush to spread a thin layer of Titebond 2 glue over the end grain on both ends of the parts. This will dry in about 10 minutes under typical conditions. After it is dry scrape off excess glue buildup/thickness with a wide chisel or hand scraper.

Then apply a second coat of Titebond 2 and do your clamp up.

I've found that a blank put together in this manner is more than strong enough to run through a wide belt sander or even the planer after the arc has been cut from the blank. I even did some tests once where I glued two 2' to 3' long boards together end to end and then tried to break the joint. I had to put the joint over a block on the floor and have someone stand on one end of the glued together stick while I stomped down on the other end. That's what it took to break the joints.

I would never trust this butt joint glue up on a single layer application. While quite strong I would not trust it over time to hold up. As a temporary joint though on something like this that is getting additional joint strength from elsewhere it is a good way to go.

BH Davis

12/3/20       #29: How would you solve this problem ...
Bill

A kitchen cabinet mitered door will open and close with the seasons and the environment is much more controlled inside. I believe you are going to get some movement no matter what you do. If you are able to make the joint so strong that it can't move something is going to give. Likely the wood will crack.

I do not have a tremendous amount of experience with outdoor projects so take what I say with a grain of salt but I think it is a no win situation.

Earlier someone said instead of trying to make and maintain a perfect miter, celebrate the joint. Put a brass inlay that overlaps it and hide the movement. It is something to be considered. I assume this is a customer job and in that case it may not be an option but I don't see overcoming this with a solution that lasts for 10 years.

Good luck!

12/3/20       #31: How would you solve this problem ...
John T. Member

Thanks Bill. Seems to me adding a brass strip won't solve the underlying problem, even if I started out with a brand new ring. When those joints open up the brass won't hide the crack. And if you try to add it to the existing ring it's going to get pinched when the wood shrinks. Maybe it would survive if I only glued it to one side of mitered joint. I don't know but I'm not motivated to try it. I see it as a bandaide more than a solution.

BH Davis, thanks for all your thoughts. I tend to agree that if you build this like I did, and are successful in keeping the joints from separating then the ring is either going to take on some other shape to reduce the stress or the wood is going to crack somewhere.

I like the two layer ring idea. But then I got to thinking, why not 3 or 4 layers? Wouldn't that spread the forces out over 2 or 3 times the glued surface area? Dealing with the edge appearance seems straight forward with shadow lines or an inlay.

John

12/3/20       #32: How would you solve this problem ...
BH Davis  Member

Website: http://www.bhdavis.net

John,

First I should have mentioned that this is often referred to as "brick laid" construction. That's because if you keep adding layers to the buildup the edge butt joint pattern looks like bricks laid in a wall.

I too considered more layers as I was typing the explanation. My initial thought was that the thinner layers would be harder to get through the glue up process and it doesn't add significant strength to the moulding. The 2-layer face to face glue up has substantial strength for holding the circle stable.

However with you suggesting this I thought a bit more. About 25 to 30 years ago I made a reproduction antique round walnut mirror with circular mullions. It can be seen at the bottom of the page linked below. My concern was of course the stability of the about 3/8" x 3/8" cross section mullions. I ended up making three 1/8" thick sheets of walnut large enough to cut the 4-ring pattern from. I then laminated these together to make a 3/8" thick sheet of walnut plywood that I took to the CNC to cut out the ring pattern.

While this was for interior use, and the outer frame used a single layer construction, the idea of a "plywood" frame here could be something to consider. Instead of making the full sheets like I did for the comparatively small ring group you would as you suggest make thin individual circles and brick lay stack them for the final moulding thickness.

As I said this would make it harder to hold the joints during processing but the end result would, I agree, be extraordinarily strong. The edge appearance might be less than desirable though because 1/2-segment shifting of all those layers will give more individual sections of end grain exposure as the curve cuts through the segments.

Bottom line is I think two layers are more than adequate to do the job. I don't think the extra construction risk along with the questionable final edge appearance make the "plywood" concept as enticing as the two layer buildup.

BH Davis

Walnut mirror at bottom of page.

12/3/20       #34: How would you solve this problem ...
John T. Member

Thanks for your thoughts BH. I don't see a problem gluing up a multi layer ring. Each ring would be butt glued separately, and then combined in one glue up in the vacuum bag at the end. When I made the original ring the segments were joined as straight sections. I cut the ring after glue up using a router on a large trammel, I would pin the layers as I added them to the stack. Whatever little misalignment there would be would be inconsequential when I then routed the ring.

John

12/4/20       #35: How would you solve this problem ...
Joe Calhoon

I have a couple thoughts about this.
1- is that piece of glass fit tight to the ring?
If it is seems like this would restrict seasonal wood movement of the ring.

2- I have had some bad experiences building doors out of Sapele. It seems to have a lot of inconstant movement. More so than what the shrinkage calculator here shows. Never had any issues building windows with it but doors with larger parts and panels I have experienced movement and cracking.

Nice table, risky construction and given its outside horizontal even with the cover I think you could expect some movement.

I wouldn’t worry about it either.

12/4/20       #36: How would you solve this problem ...
John T. Member

Hi Joe. Thanks for your thoughts. There is a 1/8" gap all around between the glass top and outer ring so I don't think there's any reason to believe that's the source of the problem. I've used Sapele on quite a few projects now and I agree that sometimes it can be very squirrely. Usually, however, I find those boards when ripping or jointing them. It's like they have internal tension in them and every time you cut them they spring a different way. Beyond that I haven't found any problems with unexpected movement in use, but I'm sure you've used a ton of it for every pound I have so if you've seen it then I know it must be true.

You mentioned "risky construction". Since many of the joints opened up that must be true. So how would you build it if someone asked for one?

Thanks.
John

12/4/20       #37: How would you solve this problem ...
David R Sochar Member

Website: http://www.acornwoodworks.com

Yes, it could get crowded with the three remnants of the butt joint and the two splines - .225 if you make them all equal. However, even if your splines were only .120 or so, they would do the job. It is the surface area 9 times greater than the original that will hold it.

But B H Davis' solution with layered rings is a good one, tho I doubt the TBII on the butted miters. I'd run 5 ply. But if Bernie made it, it would look like window casing, eh?

You mentioned that if you could hold the wood - prevent any gaps - then the rim would warp or do something as it moved the stress to another part of the table. I think that is faulty thinking - the weakest point will show stress if there is any stress to the table. What is going to do? Move to the area between the joints? Move to the toe? How will it get there?

One must rigidly think only along the lines that define the materials not adding properties we wish it had, or work with vague notions of inaccurate properties of wood. The stress will not move to another area.

I see no problem with the basic design and build - I think you did a fine job in the mechanical design. It shows you understand things correctly. Were I to pass by it in your shop in process, I would make mention of generous splines, but that is all. I would not consider it risky behavior.

Only in hindsight would I reexamine every assumption I made earlier. Seeing those gaps, feeling my stomach sink, I'd be back in the shop, making longer splines, a narrower rim, and for good measure, I would add a rim to the rim. Same thickness, about 1" wide or so, maybe a v joint where it meets the segments. The rim parts - 12 of them - would have a simple butted joint halfway between the segment joints. You could even make the rim sit on a continuous tongue routed out of the segments for additional glue surface area.

But, and this is a big butt, so to speak, I would bet lunch at a modest restaurant of your choosing, that if you doubled the splines, and made them 3" total length, that the thing would stay together. 10 years, outside.

And five bonus points for starting off one of the better technical discussions. A lot of good thought in this thread.

12/4/20       #38: How would you solve this problem ...
Joe Calhoon

John,
I’ve had some good Sapele but have had more problems with it at than any other species. Even the lowly Khaya. Sipo is a better choice if you can get it.

How would I build it? Probably the same amount of segments you did only with 1 1/2” To 2” tenons on one end and a slot on the other. Just because I am set up for that type construction. I like that you used small width segments, that is good construction. I would probably use west epoxy just because it’s horizontal. I have never had issues with TB3 and use that for everything vertical.
I think loose tenons or brick layed as BH recommends would be fine also. Last few years I have been using end grain finger joints for all my door and window radius work but that might not be the best here.

Honestly I would never build such a fine piece for outdoor use. I’m reminded of the time I built a nice solid teak outdoor golf storage cabinet for one of my well to do customers so he could practice on his ranch. I thought I had all the expansion contraction figured out. Unfortunately the ranch hands placed it where sprinklers hit half of it. It did not fail but some very strange movement and open joints resulted from that!

12/4/20       #39: How would you solve this problem ...
Tom Gardiner

Okay deep spline proponents. What happens when the 3" wide tenons gain moisture? Won't they drive the joint apart if the tenon is seated fully in the groove? I'm not picking a fight - an honest question.
I build rings for tent roofs. Each segment is joined to another with two 10mm x 30 mm x 50 mm dominoes. I'm starting to think that the cross grained tenons are not as good in this case as tenons running with the grain.

12/4/20       #40: How would you solve this problem ...
Joe Calhoon

Tom, I think Sipo Dominos would be a good way to join these. Easier to assemble than the slot and tenon I was thinking about.

12/4/20       #41: How would you solve this problem ...
Mark B Member

It sure sounds to me like this thread, given how little material there is in the ring, has the makings of a build challenge. If you think more splines/glue area will hold, make one and lean it outside under the roof overhang on the sunny side of the shop. If you think bricking would work, make one and same exposure.

I would guess on close inspection a single season would speak volumes

12/4/20       #42: How would you solve this problem ...
John T. Member

Thanks for the additional input, everyone.

I'm a little surprised no one proposed to remake the ring like a wagon wheel, with a steel band shrink fit over a ring with unglued joints. It's one of the ideas I thought about when I first saw the cracks, discounted, then came back to recently. It would be interesting to pursue if for no other reason than I've never done it.

I like the idea of the build challenge, but I don't see how to do it w/o building each idea full scale. And if that's the case I might as well just build what I think best and see how it works. It won't take long to see the initial results, just one Winter. Nothing bad seems to happen during the other three seasons. It's the trip from Fall to Spring that does the damage.

John

12/4/20       #43: How would you solve this problem ...
Mark B Member

A reasonably full size mockup is only about 10lf of material. Not cheap but not unreasonable to prove the point.

12/5/20       #44: How would you solve this problem ...
Adam

John,

Your table looks very nice. Sorry to hear about the expected failures. It would be useful to provide a close up pic of the joint failure.

Rather than doing two tenons I would stick with the single tenon for aesthetics. Go deeper. 1.5 or 2” is easy on the table saw.

T-88 is a good epoxy. Not one I would choose. West System is the one by which all other’s are judged. It’s decent and available.

The mistake people make with epoxy is machining & clamping too tight. Typically we make mort/tenons .002” loose for pva wood glue. Epoxy needs really thick glue joints. The joints should be visible 1/32”(.031).

Properly done epoxy joints are ugly. All surfaces(metals, composites and wood) should all be sanded with 80 grit. Table saw kerf marks are a good thing. Never take something off of the jointer or planer.

West System will soak into end grain and fills it up. Adding filler does not make it stronger. The cotton microfibres soak up the resin and keep it leeching out. Precoat. Wait 10 minutes and glue it together.

We have laminated insane amounts of teak & Mahogany with West System. Never once used filler.

I believe that your project could have worked.

12/5/20       #45: How would you solve this problem ...
Mark B Member

Pixels, not cellulose and lignin, but for fun tossed in a quick 12 segment ring likely much smaller than the original table (40" outer dia segmented, 38"+ round). Sapele on Shrinkulator - .040" radial on a 5.5" width with 5%MC change. Keeping the heels tight leaves .0259" and takes less than a tenth of a degree off the bevel. Taking all that error out on a single joint leaves a 1 1/8" gap.


View higher quality, full size image (1632 X 1056)

12/5/20       #46: How would you solve this problem ...
BH Davis  Member

Website: http://www.bhdavis.net

I've seen full circles fail as Mark shows in his CAD drawing, and in multiple smaller gaps around the circle.

Picture a simple MSG interior door or window 45 degree casing corner. If it shrinks it opens up on the inside of the corner. If it expands it opens up on the outside. The stronger the wood species, wider the moulding and greater the change in seasonal moisture content the harder it becomes to prevent this from happening. Take the same concept to a full circle and you are making the separation forces even stronger.

I feel strongly that the only way to pretty much assure you won't be making this a third time is by using the brick layered method. The wood would have to split through both layers along the grain for that to fail.

BH Davis

12/5/20       #48: How would you solve this problem ...
Leo G Member

Make it anyway you want and coat the entire thing in epoxy, a few coats thick. No moisture, no movement.

12/5/20       #49: How would you solve this problem ...
John T. Member

Here is a photo of a joint that has barely opened up and one of the two really bad ones. The ring is 50-3/8" OD and the ID is 4" smaller.

John


View higher quality, full size image (666 X 375)


View higher quality, full size image (666 X 375)

12/5/20       #50: How would you solve this problem ...
Mark B Member

So at 50" thats some back of the napkin increase of like 24% on the numbers in the drawing. Depending on how many joints are really bad it seems your well below the math though any movement and the forces associated there would seem to present a problem.

12/5/20       #51: How would you solve this problem ...
Tom Gardiner

It looks like you have nailed the failure math Mark. The 1/8" gap in the original posts seemed to be crazy big for simple expansion/contraction, but it comes down to weakest link opening up. The rest are gaps due to mitre angle change.
I'm with BH here, brick laid construction. Add suspenders of a UV stable epoxy sealer .

12/5/20       #52: How would you solve this problem ...
Mark B Member

You guys are all way smarter than me with this but I would say a combination of several solutions would be the best. Brick or more tenons, perhaps increase segments, and while I hate the thought of epoxy encapsulation (most building a table like this would not be pleased with the encapsulated finish) it would definitely slow the moisture though it will still happen eventually with time. Perhaps the very best is the OP's idea of a heat shrunk wagon wheel arrangement (stainless) though it has issues of its own (scorching).

My only liability statement would still be to build a small "table garage"/vestibule and simply roll the table out when needed. ;-) Completely impractical but...

I agree with David though, nice to see some chatter here.

12/5/20       #53: How would you solve this problem ...
John T. Member

Thanks all. Yes, nice to get some constructive discussion. At this point I'm thinking either a two or three layer brick laid ring with an epoxy sealer, but not encased in layers of epoxy.

One more thought. Similar to the metal hoop, what about putting a dado in the outside of the ring and then winding carbon fiber cord saturated in epoxy into it? What say you composite guys?

12/5/20       #54: How would you solve this problem ...
BH Davis  Member

Website: http://www.bhdavis.net

Other than my carbon fiber road bicycle I don't have experience with that material. However there is more flex in my carbon fiber bike than an alloy bike. My initial reaction to the idea is that while it might be strong enough to prevent the outside diameter of the circle from increasing it might not be rigid enough to keep the circle from going out of round.

BH Davis

12/5/20       #55: How would you solve this problem ...
Mark B Member

If I were in damage control the last thing id be doing is contemplating the introduction of an unknown variable.

12/5/20       #56: How would you solve this problem ...
Tom Gardiner

I would not recommend adding the carbon fibre (even if it when a weave which would look cool) because your photos show gaps opened on the toe of the mitre indicating shrinkage being the culprit. Your carbon band would be wrinkled or delaminated.
One poster recommended the possibility of more segments being better. I don't think it would as Marks cad drawing shows. When the diameter grows with wood expansion the circumference would have to enlarge by 3.14 times that length. However the wood doesn't expand appreciably in length. The number of segments actually would make things marginally worse mathematically at least because the grain becomes more perfectly perpendicular to the radius.

12/6/20       #57: How would you solve this problem ...
Tom Gardiner

My error disregard my last comment. Expansion opened the gaps.

12/7/20       #58: How would you solve this problem ...
David R Sochar Member

Website: http://www.acornwoodworks.com

I reasoned the following some time ago, and times like this it is good to revisit. Best for open miters and breadboards.

Imagine 2 parallel immovable steel beams 12” apart. Rip a piece of 3/4” x 2’ long commercially dried white oak to just fit between the two beams. It needs to fit across the width of the board. That oak is at 8%. Now reduce the moisture to 6”. The oak will now have a gap - will be less than 12” and fall out of the beams, due to its hygroscopic nature. Now hold the oak in place, between the beams, and add moisture to 12%. The board will swell to the 12” fit, and be tight in the beams. As we add moisture, the board will not increase in width due to the restraint. However, all the wood fibers are trying to swell, but can’t due to mechanical restraint.

Next, we will decrease to the 8% MC that held the panel at 12” where we started. The panel will be less than 12” since all the fibers have been crushed.

Now let’s glue our panel to those beams. We will assume the glue will easily hold the oak. So the 12” 8% MC panel is glued in place, and we will reduce moisture. The panel will eventually crack, often with a sudden, loud crack. All the fibers were being stretched to the breaking point, and one point eventually gave way.

Back to the 12” panel and the beams. Glue this one in, at 8%, then add moisture. The fibers will all compress and will take the abuse. Then reduce moisture to 8% and the panel will crack as it “shrinks”.

This thought experiment (apologies to Dr Einstein) has helped me understand the basics of wood movement.

And, Tom G, I noticed a incorrect statement. You said the 3” wide tenons could swell in the grooves and force the joint open.
However, the grain in the tenon or the spline is glued to the segments as long grain to long grain, or nearly so. There is no appreciable movement that would degrade the joint. There is no movement or expansion in the length of wood.

12/7/20       #59: How would you solve this problem ...
Tom Gardiner

Ahh. I misunderstood the orientation and thought I was seeing end grain in the photo. Now everyone can disregard everything I say :) I'm used to it

12/7/20       #60: How would you solve this problem ...
Mark B Member

I feel (not assume) most anyone reading pretty much either understands on paper or has suffered their own misery with regards to radial and tangential wood movement. At its core its pretty basic stuff. Anyone who purchases a dry compressed sponge and tosses it in the sink understands. The leap to longitudinal is a short one as well.

To me the nuances come in all the tricky algebra and trig that come in when a situation like this thread pops up and the radial/tangential suddenly turns into a change in the miter angle, which when multiplied out over several segments equals a sad-face event.

Im still interested in the comments that say the fury that the compounded condition will exact on a joint or joints can be confined with glue in any long term warranty-able sitiuation.

I personally dont know how it can. Which leaves me with the agreement to "celebrate" the joint (tip of the hat to old 'nahm).. or engineer some other non-wood solution into the process (wagon wheel, kevlar, alien tech)

The wagon wheel has worked through the ages because it creates so much compression it crushes the wood fibers trying to expand. But of course through seasons and use this wet/expand/crush, dry/shrink/get lose, wash rinse repeat lands in a make a new one situation.

Im going to build the brick and a deeper or perhaps more tenon option and put them in the torture test. Out behind my shop, wet, damp, cool, then to the front, sun hot, dry.

I cant fathom any glue line resisting 1-1/8" of movement across all the joints with the exterior swings.

12/7/20       #61: How would you solve this problem ...
John T. Member

Mark, I can imagine a glue holding the joints together, whether spline, M&T, or brick laid construction. What that glue is I'm not sure, but I'm very sure the wood will expand/contract as it wants regardless of what glue is used and that means either the wood is going to crack somewhere or the ring will not remain flat. Somehow that stress is going to be relieved.
While the total change in expansion/contraction remains the same for a segmented ring of any given geometry it's clear the amount that occurs in any one joint is reduced the more segments the ring is made of, So if you use enough segments the stress will eventually be low enough for some glue to hold the segments together. I used 12 segments; perhaps 24 would have survived. .
A brick laid ring undergoes the same change in expansion/contraction but the stress is distributed over an infinitely larger glue surface area. I'm not convinced the toe of each joint will remain tight, however. Logic says they open or the wood cracks or the ring bows.

The test pieces you plan to make should provide some solid answers and I'm looking forward to how they behave. Thanks very much for doing this.

John

12/8/20       #62: How would you solve this problem ...
Adam

I’m one of the resident WW boatbuilder/woodworker guys. I have done thousands of hours of composite boatbuilding(carbon/glass/epoxy/foam&balsa core)

The easiest way to pimp your ride with carbon fibre would be to route a dado on the underside of the wood ring. Bond in a tow(yarn) of unidirectional carbon/epoxy.

It is a really bad idea. The carbon will not move. Large chunks of wood needs to move a bit in width & thickness. Also you are making an imbalanced panel.

You could use your lovely table and skin both sides of it with carbon fabric. Essentially using the wood as a core. Kinda defeats the purpose of building a nice wood table.

If you made the table out of wood veneers you could add a layer of uni carbon, which would work and make it have a nice looking jet black inlay.

Your 2nd bad picture is what an epoxy butt joint should look like. The first one looks like a pva joint. Like I wrote before. Perfect epoxy glue joints are ugly.

Putting 2 coats of West System clear with UV(to minimise the moisture changes) plus a couple of coats of high quality marine varnish(to protect the epoxy) applied yearly forever may keep your table looking good.

Send Santa an annual fruitcake for good luck and you might have a chance.

12/8/20       #64: How would you solve this problem ...
John T. Member

Thanks for your thoughts Adam. So if I wanted to make it as a veneered composite what would be the best core material for exterior use? I guess I could make a Sapele plywood ring with all the layers running at 90° but that's a lot of work. Alternatively I could veneer some core material, but which? I doubt exterior grade MDF is up to the task, even with a hardwood insert on the OD and ID, but that's just a guess on my part, no actual experience with it. Would balsa wrapped in or layered with fiberglass, Kevlar, or carbon fiber be suitable?

John

12/8/20       #65: How would you solve this problem ...
Adam

Veneer was the incorrect word. Imagine the wheel of a ship. It’s a ring. We make them the same way you would make a curved jamb. 3/16” laminated layers. We’ve added carbon laminate layers in between teak. Makes a rather stout wheel.

Kevlar is only really used for impact resistance like a kayak or canoe. Glass is structural and used for waterproofing layers. Carbon is stiff. Very stiff. Glass has the same tensile strength, but carbon is 50 times stiffer. Plus it looks cool.

We’ve built many tables for yachts. Weight is a serious concern(more weight=less speed) We typically build them with end-grain balsa core. It’s available 1/2,3/4,1”. It comes to us skinned on both sides with 1 thin layer of fibreglass. It’s used for structural bulkheads in boats. The problem is if you buy regular balsa off the shelf it’s kerf cut, so it can bend around shapes. The core by itself is weak. It needs decent strength skins for its strength.

Point being veneering a sheet of mdf/ply with thin wood is a table. The wood might as well as be paint(non structural) You are now asking about making a composite panel akin to a hollow core door. You need to use decent strength identical skins to stiffen the light weight high compression core.

Another option is VG WRC(vertical grain western red cedar)

We build sailboat rudders using cedar as the core and skin it with glass and a bit of carbon. They also build entire 50’ sailboats out of plywood like layers of cedar. Then glass it inside and out.

Cedar is very stable & strong when mixed with epoxy & glass.

12/9/20       #66: How would you solve this problem ...
Joe Calhoon

I’ve been working at the yurt last few days and thinking of this thread looking at the center ring. It’s quite nice and made by a local shop with CNC. In over a year and joints are tight as ever.
Poor picture but it’s bricklayed in 2 layers.
Not outside but exposed to radical temperature changes, sunlight and humidity changes at 11000 ft.

Am I right in thinking there would not be much movement of a ring with a lot of segments? Only in the width of opposite segments?

John, have you noticed any change in the 1/8” revel of your glass?


View higher quality, full size image (1280 X 960)

12/9/20       #68: How would you solve this problem ...
John T. Member

Adam, if I understand you correctly, the sailboat wheels are laminated with the layers wrapped around the circumference, yes? If so, that's one of the first ideas I though about in how to solve the problem. What's the cross section of a boat wheel? My ring is 4".

Joe, that's a pretty similar application for the yurt ring, of course it's much smaller in diameter and hopefully never gets wet, but still, it's the same concept. Yeah, lots of segments divides the total mismatch in outer diameter as the wood expands and shrinks into a smaller amount that each individual joint has to accommodate. I picked 12 segments for the ring I made because it looked good, but if 24 would solve the problem then it would look better after 3 years. Brick laid might get me back to only needing 12 segments. I don't know.

Adam, tell me again why putting a layer of carbon fiber between a brick laid construction is a bad idea. Or perhaps a layered construction of 3/16" wood with carbon fiber between each layer.

I'm not married to Sapele either. The ring could be made from mahogany, etc. and still look good with the rest of the table.

Thanks all,

John

12/9/20       #69: How would you solve this problem ...
Mark B Member

Joe,
All an exercise in information and overthinking at this point, and I have no real data, but would assume at that elevation and your location things would be relatively dry with regards to wild humidity swings so to speak?

I would imagine just having a roof over it and being up at the peak would help a bunch but then you'd have the off angle sun exposure throughout the day/seasons hitting just the inner edge of the ring. Place sitting empty/cold then toasty fire, etc.. Would seem that ring for inside exposure gets a good beating but no direct water.

My only thought with more segments was to spread the movement out over more joints thinking it would reduce the movement to something whatever glue used could resist. But that depends theoretically on the movement being equally spread over all the joints which may not be the case given the material variability, any gluing/clamping inconsistency, etc.. The old "weakest link in the chain".

Broken record, you all have way more data but pretty interesting exercise none the less.

12/9/20       #70: How would you solve this problem ...
Tom Gardiner

I make 4 yurt rings a year from Eastern white pine. Their section is 6" x 6" four layers of 1 1/2" cnc cut bricks. I route tapered mortises into each half ring then glue the pair together to accept the rafters. While the rings don't get direct exposure to the elements, they get baked in the summer heat and are subject to daily condensation from interior moisture.
Once I began to buy pine well in advance so I could get the MC to 8% we have had no joint issues. The rafters enter the ring on an angle and wedge in both dimensions (a PIA to get right) so they inflict a torque on the plies but I have seen rings up for four years now without any damage.
The glue is type 2 pva. Each layer is glued with two large dominoes per joint and the rings are glued into two plies the same day to maintain flat faces.
The bricked assembly has proven very stable.

12/10/20       #71: How would you solve this problem ...
David R Sochar Member

I like brick laid construction. We use it for curved door and window frames. No spring back to try to anticipate. I can see it as a solution for the table in question. In fact,
I can see brick laid work in thickness or in width.

Wagon wheels for rapid continental expansion are built from green wood since there was no time for drying. These wheels would shrink and dr6 on the fly, and serve well. Once dried out, it was customary to let a wagon stand in shallow water to tighten up the wheels again.

The rim controlled/limited expansion and took the wear. The hub, spokes and felloes all expanded and shrunk within the metal rim.

In that sense, a “wagon wheel” approach to building would not give better results. In fact, John's 12 segments mimic the felloes of a wheel.

12/10/20       #72: How would you solve this problem ...
Joe Calhoon

Tom,
That sounds like a very high end ring!
This one is only 2 layers of 2” flat sawn fir. I think it’s about 4 1/2 foot diameter.
I like the idea of pocketing the rafters also.
We have a local yurt company here that has been around for a while. I forgot about the heat in those. It’s like a solar oven in the summer.

I think brick layed would be the strongest but not sure I would like the look on a table like this. I’m not a fan of splined construction. I think I would still slot and tenon if building this.

12/10/20       #73: How would you solve this problem ...
BH Davis  Member

Website: http://www.bhdavis.net

Just give my suggestion of the TB II pre-sized joints a try on a couple scrap sticks. That will show you the strength of that joint for temporary layer joint construction.

I can assure you that you don't need any splines or tenons during the glue up. And as I said the face to face glue surface will negate the need for anything other than butt joints once completed.

BH Davis

12/10/20       #74: How would you solve this problem ...
Jeff

Very interesting forum to read, but I think I would just go out and buy a plastic table at this point.

Btw, your table looks beautiful so I hope you get it figured out.

Have a wonderful day everyone.

12/10/20       #75: How would you solve this problem ...
Pat Gilbert

Dave

It sounds like you are speaking from experience?

12/10/20       #76: How would you solve this problem ...
Joe Calhoon

BH, agree no joinery needed for brick construction. I usually just butt and pinch dog the segments together for this.
Slot and tenon- I was referring to segments only for building this.

12/10/20       #77: How would you solve this problem ...
Tom Gardiner

Joe:
The yurt company is Yurta.ca. The rings are for their 21' yurts. The rings are complex to make and I'm sure I'm not charging enough for them but I make up for it in the other wood components for the smaller yurts.
I use the Dominoes for alignment during glue up. All ten segments are glued at the same time. A single band clamp pulls the ring together.

12/16/20       #78: How would you solve this problem ...
Oggie Member

I don't think any high quality hand made furniture should be kept outside, and I'm skeptical that a construction method which could prevent all those outdoor problems with solid wood even exists.
If you make joints strong enough not to crack, then probably the wood itself will give first.

In this case I would cut the ring out of decent quality plywood (probably two overlapping layers if you can't find sheets big enough to make it out of one piece) and cover it with veneer (maybe 1/8" thick) for that kind of solid wood look and soak it in whichever finish/conditioner that would help it survive outdoors as long as possible.

12/19/20       #79: How would you solve this problem ...
J tread Member

Would West System 655 G/flex be a good adhesive to use in a glue-up like this. It has a tensile strength of 32.7% ? I have used it when I thought wood movement would be an issue.

West System G/flex Epoxies

12/20/20       #81: How would you solve this problem ...
John T. Member

Interesting point about G-Flex for this application. Adam and others; what do think? I might have to contact West Systems to see what they have to say.

32.7% is an incredibly hard to believe tensile elongation value for epoxy.

I'm always surprised how epoxy can do so well in boat applications with such low Tg values.

John

12/20/20       #82: How would you solve this problem ...
Adam

G/flex is a great product. I’ve posted on WW about it a few times over the years. It’s been around for over 10 years. I use it for bonding plastics or dissimilar materials.

The vid is amazing. Kayaks are made from polyethylene. Nothing sticks to it. They flame harden the edges and glue it back together with just G/flex no fibreglass reinforcement. Amazing.

G/flex is expensive. However you aren’t using a lot of it. The table is expensive. The only downside is it’s not rock hard like regular epoxy. Comparing TB1 to TB3 is a fair comparison.

You can actually mix G/flex with the regular West 105 system. You mix each batch separately(g/flex 1:1 ratio) 105(5:1ratio) then mix them together. So you can go half G/flex to get a bit more movement but not too much. There is a good Epoxyworks article about it.

G/flex kayak

12/20/20       #83: How would you solve this problem ...
Adam

Everyone here should have the small G/flex kit on your shelf. It is what Gorilla(PU) adhesives wanted to be, but are not.

John,

G/flex will definitely help you in your battle with physics. I would encourage you to do a few text samples. You may not like the hardness. I would use it.

 

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