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Rotting cedar

6/28/16       
Adam

The paint was peeling on a 5' picket fence on my own property. I rent the house and haven't seen it in 2 years. I haven't paid much attention to the fence since I installed it in 2005.

The fence was typical prefab 2 1/2" decorative cedar from a reputable builders supply in Connecticut. The posts were likewise 4 x 4 solid cedar.

I buried the posts 2' in good soil. 10 years later the posts are rotting enough that a couple broke upon removal. The rail ends that go into the posts are like wise rotted. The pickets are fine.

It was painted a few weeks after install with Muralo exterior acrylic(excellent paint).

It appears to be cut from mostly new growth trees judging by the exposed end grain. Is this the new normal?

10 years is not very long.

6/29/16       #2: Rotting cedar ...
B.H. Davis Member

As a rule I don't recommend cedar any longer. All the old growth trees are long gone and today's lumber is being sawn from trees that have not been growing long enough to build up up the oils that old growth cedar is famous for.

In the ground is especially problematic now for cedar posts. I have a situation locally that is just like yours and they're going to have to pull out all the approx. 15 year old posts. Big project.

I would only use pressure treated for direct contact with the ground now. I would recommend PT for both the posts and base rails on a picket fence. Cedar for the pickets is ok as a rule but not for posts or lower rails.

BH Davis

6/29/16       #3: Rotting cedar ...
Adam

BH,
I totally agree with you about the PT posts. The other location of rot was where the turned ends of the rails go into the holes drilled in the cedar posts. As I noted the pickets and rest of the rail were fine. Consideration should be made to limit the exposure of any end grain to moisture.

C Dere,

I've been an active member of Woodweb for over 15 years. I've got 22 years of experience that would not have led me to expect cedar posts to sustain this much rot below and above grade.

6/30/16       #4: Rotting cedar ...
David R Sochar Member

I agree that WRCedar is not what it used to be, same as Redwood. Second growth is all that is generally available, and it just does not have the durability it once had.

Around here, we see Eastern Red Cedar posts for fencing. Same species we also know as Aromatic Cedar. They are marked so that you put them in the ground 'top of tree first' to prevent rot. I can say it works as I have several that are over 30 yrs old and solid.

6/30/16       #5: Rotting cedar ...
Joe Knobbe

I agree with the comments above and will add this. The posts should not have been set in dirt, I think they would have lasted longer set in a mixture of pea gravel and crushed limestone. It drains better that way.

6/30/16       #6: Rotting cedar ...
Adam

Joe,

In the northeast, we typically throw a couple of handfuls of crushed stone in the bottom of the hole(I did this on that rotting cedar fence). The vast, vast majority of all posts are set in dirt. Concreting wood is generally a bad idea as well unless its a load bearing post on a deck.

As an aside, my carriage house(circa 1850) has quatersawn eastern white pine which have never rotted. The rest of the building is some kind of fir and had zero rot. The wood gutters and barn cupola are original as well.

6/30/16       #7: Rotting cedar ...
Keith Newton

Adam, None of the "Old Growth" species that were great before seem to be as good. Down here in LR, one of my architect neighbors up the street thought he would replace his front porch with Cypress. It had mushrooms growing out of it after one year.

As for post, even the pressure treated 4x4s isn't worth using on anything in ground contact, and most looks terrible to start with, since most contains the pith, and the treatment isn't "ground contact" from my local suppliers.

One thing I've started doing for the things that I want to extend the durability on, is soaking the ends with CEPS. While it was first formulated to solidify decayed wood, it will also penetrate pretty far into the end grain of a soft wood like cedar, then prevent it from soaking water in as quickly as just raw wood. It is expensive, but then again, not as expensive as replacing that fence.

I've only use two brands, the Smith's which I liked best, and the Total Boat brand, both bought from Jamestown Distributing. The TB is thicker, and cheaper,and won't penetrate as well in new wood. However they claim it can be thinned down.but I wasn't sure if when I tested, it was actually the epoxy penetrating deeper, or just the acetone separating, leaving the long chains of epoxy on the end, as they would be without thinning.

Another thing I have done, having my own Woodmizer, is cut some heavier beams out of better material, then taking it to the local pressure treatment plant to let them do it. I can even request better treatment for ground contact. This was very reasonable, and much easier than trying to get that level of protection on my own, but they don't want to take small orders.

http://www.smithandcompany.org/CPES/

7/1/16       #8: Rotting cedar ...
Adam

Has anybody seen any problems with the newer pressure treated since they removed the arsenic? The issue I've always had with PT is even the good stuff checks like crazy and looks terrible.

The extra copper chews up the zinc on joist hangers. We had a deck job the year they switched and used a dozen of the old joist hangers. They started to rust after a week. The heavy galv joist hangers really are necessary.

7/3/16       #9: Rotting cedar ...
Larry

PT wood used to be available in 3 grades. Still? The highest grade was ground contact rated. Generally local lumber yards don't carry anything but the cheapest. I hate the stuff anyway. Hard to make anything out of a cork screw.

7/6/16       #10: Rotting cedar ...
Peter Gagliardi Member

You are in CT, and depending on where, you should generally have no trouble at all finding a small mill that can make you posts from Black Locust. You won't find a more durable below grade wood.
The old saying might be true that "a black locust post in the ground will last about 20 years longer than a granite one"
I know of guys who have relocated some 40-50 year old posts that said it was as solid as the day it was sawn.

7/7/16       #11: Rotting cedar ...
Gene Wengert - Wood Doc

It is well to remember that only the heartwood has any natural decay resistance. Further, the natural decay resistance is not 100% when in ground contact. The idea of longevity of wood like cedar when in contact with the ground and in a moist environment is way overstated...a wives' tale indeed that seems to be repeated year after year.

When wood is in ground contact, the decay risk is much higher if the wood is wet.

Today's pressure treatment that is rated for ground contact use (which means higher chemical levels) are very effective and will last for many years in most environments. However, appreciate that with a post or large timber, the outer 2" may be well treated, but the core may be without treatment and therefore subject to decay when a hole is drilled, an end is cut off, a crack occurs, etc., which exposes the untreated wood. Also appreciate that some PT wood is treated to refusal, which does not give enough chemical in the wood for ground contact. So, always look for the sticker on the end of the piece that assures correct treatment levels (unless the sticker is counterfeit, but who would do that?).

7/7/16       #12: Rotting cedar ...
Larry

In my part of the country Osage is pretty nearly rot proof. Pretty nearly nail proof also.

10/21/19       #13: Rotting cedar ...
Ethan Member

Website: https://fencingeugeneor.com

Honestly, I just try and get the best that is available, but in the end, wood is just going to rot. I try to get the best cedar / redwood available when installing a fence, and just put a lot of emphasis on really good maintenance.

2/23/22       #14: Rotting cedar ...
Johnny Phelps

I would only use pressure treated for direct contact with the ground now. I would recommend PT for both the posts and base rails on a picket fence

4/12/22       #15: Rotting cedar ...
Conor

Website: https://www.fenceinstaller.com.au

If the fence is going deep into the ground, we always prefer hardwoods like cedar, oak or even walnut as they tend to last longer, are termite resistant and generally more suitable for posts.

9/28/22       #16: Rotting cedar ...
Abel

Website: https://www.richmondhillfence.ca/cedar.html

Cedar is fantastic, but if you're looking at posts that run deep in the ground and you live in a climate that sees a lot of moisture, your better off looking at a mix and matching materials, i.e. cedar planks plus pressure-treated pine posts.

9/28/22       #17: Rotting cedar ...
Andrew P.

Website: https://www.cambridgefence.ca/cedarfence.html

Cedar is great, but no matter what wood fencing material is used, it's highly recommended to seal it annually.

9/28/22       #18: Rotting cedar ...
Bryan

Website: https://www.guelphfence.ca/cedar.html

All things considered, other species of wood have similar or higher likelihood of rotting in the right conditions, so I would still pick cedar.


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