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shaper or moulder knives

4/27/17       
Chuck S Member

I've never used a shaper or moulder before and I purchased a bunch of barely used knives a while ago that I thought I could use later when I got a shaper. I got such a good deal I went ahead without much research. Now I think these are all moulder knives.
My question is: can I use these knives in a shaper head? I literally have over a hundred sets and they range in size from 1 1/4 inch long to 7 or so inches. I'll attach a few photos to show some. If they are strictly only usable for a large industrial moulder I guess I'll just sell them. They are 1/4 inch and 5/16 inch thick corrugated knives. There's 2 of each. Anyone with experience in this area please advise me.
I probably won't even buy a shaper if I can't use these. It was more for myself than business. Thanks.


View higher quality, full size image (3264 X 1836)


View higher quality, full size image (3264 X 1836)


View higher quality, full size image (3264 X 1836)

4/27/17       #2: shaper or moulder knives ...
Dan / drbwoodworks

You can run those on a shaper , the tallest cutter I feel comfortable running on our shapers is 3-4" . Any thing bigger goes in the molder . Also if we're running straight molding we always use the molder . Shapers are for radius and other odd things

4/27/17       #3: shaper or moulder knives ...
Paul Miller

Website: http://MCCWOODWORKING.COM

These are typical for knives used on molders. Normally, you would have plastic templates with them so they could be sharpened. I own a Weinig molder and I was taught how to make and grind knives by Weinig. Weinig called their system Axial Constant and these have not been made to that standard. This just makes them a little harder to set up and if you want to sharpen them, you would have to make templates if you do not have them.

Also, when sharpening knives, the final grind is at a different angle which these do not show. Just not how I was taught.

I don't know what value these have, but to make a set of knives, seven inches long would cost about $400. Making templates isn't a huge deal. You can trace the knives, scan the traced image into AutoCad, make the template from the scanned image and cut a plastic template on a laser engraver. The template will be opposite of the knife. You would need to have someone with knowledge of making and grinding knives doing this.

The problem is that so many shops have closed and there probably isn't a great demand for these knives. I have knives that look similar to these.

4/28/17       #4: shaper or moulder knives ...
Russ

Website: http://www.mr-moulding-knives.com

Chuck Yes, these can be used on both a moulder and shaper. Paul did a great job explaining. Just one note on safety, the moulding knife should be supported by the entire gib when installed in the cutter head, I posted a link below for you to visualize. The first image you posted the knife looks too small on the safety standards, that's a risk. If I can be of any further assistance my contact information is listed on my website above. Be safe Russ @ MR

cut steel sizes for moulding knife blanks

4/28/17       #6: shaper or moulder knives ...
Chuck S Member

Thanks for input guys. There are a lot of longer knives than 4 inches so maybe I sell those. What type of shaper head is best? and I guess it depends on the shaper I get. But if someone can steer me to the best resource for that based on experience that would be good. Here's some more photos I just took. There are templates for each in some sort of phenolic material.


View higher quality, full size image (3264 X 1836)


View higher quality, full size image (3264 X 1836)


View higher quality, full size image (3264 X 1836)

4/28/17       #7: shaper or moulder knives ...
Russ

Chuck
These knives appear to be ground at 12 degree hook angle. When you purchase a shaper cutter head, look for a dual angle 12/20 degree, that way you have the two most common options available.
Have a good weekend!
Russ @ MR

4/28/17       #8: shaper or moulder knives ...
B.H. Davis Member

Good information from Paul but with one minor oversight.

Making grinding templates from a tracing of a set of knives will result in a slightly different profile than making a grinding template from a wood sample.

The knives have an attack angle for correct head mounting. That is they set into the head at a forward leaning angle instead of at 90° to the core of the moulding head. Just tracing the knives will result in a very similar, but not exactly the same, profile as was originally designed into the knives.

BH Davis

5/2/17       #9: shaper or moulder knives ...
Chuck S Member

Thanks again. I'm surprised a template would create a different profile, but I'm not trained on the process of grinding knives.

Do moulders always have 5 heads and if so are 4 of them for basically S4S ing the material? Sorry, but I'm green in this area.

The cheap moulders only have one head- right? Like William & Hussey. I think their moulder can only shape to a certain depth though.
Is there a book or good place to learn about the whole process of making mouldings? And the limitations of the various machines? Thanks

5/2/17       #10: shaper or moulder knives ...
B.H. Davis Member

Chuck,

Their is really no comparison between a proper moulder and all the small machines.

Moulder/planers like the Williams & Hussey, Bellsaw, Sanding Master etc. are small shop machines. They run with 1 to 3 knives depending upon the machine head and operator preference. They are basically $5,000 or even much less machines. They can run with a simple single bag or barrel dust collector and usually require multiple passes of the moulding through the machine at around 10 feet per minute.

A bonafide 4 or 5 head moulder costs many 10s of thousands of dollars. A set of cutter head for the knives alone can cost several thousand. The machine is typically 10' to 15' long and takes serious experience or training in order to run. It also requires a substantial dust collection layout with shaving typically being sent to a trailer parked outside the building. It will run mouldings in one pass at easily 25 to 50 feet per minute.

BH Davis

5/5/17       #11: shaper or moulder knives ...
Larry

We run a 5 head Weinig (wish it was 6) and we grind our knives on a Weinig profile grinder. We will use the same knives on our shapers and also on our Stegherr arch molding shaper. The heads used on the molder can be run on the shapers with the addition of bushings to match spindle size to bore. To run the heads/knives on a shaper you need a heavy shaper and a power feed. There is a difference in quality of shape/molder heads! Unless you are running a jointed molder, you have to figure the finish you are getting is a single knife finish. What that means is a relatively slow feed rate, typically less than 35'/min. On a shaper (a Wms & Hussy is really a horizontal shaper) making multiple passes to get to the final profile is limited by the ability to stably feed the material after part of it has been removed.
The reason the finished molding and the template are slightly different is that the knives are not held in the heads on a radial line.
Be very careful when using a shaper to make heavy cuts!

6/29/17       #12: shaper or moulder knives ...
Tim

Website: https://www.facebook.com/Pinnacle-Point-Studio-236...

I am kind of surprised that no one is telling you not to use these knives without proper training. Knives that size are extremely dangerous to use, kickback, depth of cut, proper fence or jig setup are critical. I have a Yates American N4 shaper that has 7 inches under the nut and I run some large cutters, but I still get chills on startup with some of these. The fact they are loose knife corrugated cutters adds to the danger, they must be evenly placed in the head bothe vertically and horizontally to prevent out of balance and poor cut issues.Starting out with small cutters is the way to go as you get a feel for it if you are confident in your abilities. It's not rocket science but one little mistake could kill you.


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