Without question, I say this must be decided on a case by case basis. Yell at some, they will rebel, be demotivated, yell back, or perhaps even quit or swing at you. Others, will not do a damn thing UNLESS they are yelled at! I treat each associate different depending on what motivates them. There is no "One answer fits all" here.
It's also important to point out that there is different types of screaming. Some screaming is Productive, Fun, and keeps an upswing, high energy level around the shop. Other screaming can be insulting, demeaning, and demotivating.
Good luck figuring out all the personality types. -DM
In my younger days, I yelled a lot and threw things at times. It was unhealthy for me and stupid behavior, and not good for my employees either. It does not justify my behavior, but I was hiring some real knuckle heads along with a few really good employees. Never had any quit over this, often if I was yelling, somebody was probably fixing to be fired, and for good reason.
Over time I learned to understand that ultimately, I was the main source of my own frustrations. My poor hiring decisions brought me workers who were not trained and often not capable of doing quality work. After I downsized the business, I began the practice of hiring much better people, or not hiring at all. I also do not take work that we don't have the ability to produce on time, or the facility and equipment to do the quality of work expected by the customer. I don't remember the last time I yelled at anyone, and life is much better now. Anger will destroy your health, and never makes anything better.
I had a reputation for being a T total hardass for several years. i could/would sort the slackers out in a matter of hours.
If a guy could work with me for more than 2 days he would likely be with me for years.
I had one guy working for me, really a decent cabinet guy, but Lord at the personal drama he could bring to the job- screwbally family relationships, always being "victimized" by police, utility co, bank, car lot, CPS, and on and on.
The victimization and family drama often had him calling in as no show, IF he bothered to call at all.
I allowed him to keep me in COMPLETE turmoil for almost eight years (I realize it is completely MY FAULT it went that long)- the happiest day of my life was the day he quit after I reprimanded him. I REALLY set it off on him.
I haven't allowed myself to go there for almost two years-it is completely unnecessary. I'm happier with myself and so are my new guys.
If it takes yelling your doing it wrong or absolutely have the wrong kind of people. Do yourself and them a huge favor- CHANGE ONE OR THE OTHER
I'm often getting an impression that the more agressive type of behaviour is more common in younger/newer managers. And I fully get it. Management is hard. And yes it pays more, but my goodness does it ever demand a lot. But I think using aggression in states of desperation may be a bit of a trap, some sort of a self perpetuated cycle of frustration.
Saw a very good article on the subject if anyone is interested:
In the 80's, I worked for an owner that liked to go out on the shop floor - 20 man shop - and chuckle it up with a few guys. He would then come in my glass-walled office and direct me who to fire before noon. He was good cop, I was bad cop. He would fire just to scare everyone else. He once fired the whole company on a Friday afternoon, and then announced he would be hiring Monday morning - at 20% lower wages. They almost all showed up, and took back 'their' jobs.
Then my next shop experience was my own, with the usual assortments of knuckleheads, pretenders, and decent people. I was a hot head there, blaming the stress of ownership on my bad behavior. In fact 15 years later, I hear stories about me yelling (?!?) at so and so. At least they agreed that the receiver of my wrath had earned it. I always did wait until I was irrational before I fired someone. It does make for colorful recollection.
Later years have found me describing myself as a production enabler - one who's task it is to make the job flow better, faster, smoother, whatever. I only raise my voice for rants on external stimuli like terrible craft that gets accepted, clueless customers, etc. I see myself as as a shop equal, ready to adapt my methods for the better ideas that may come from others.
The wisdom of age would be wasted on the young, eh?
I received a lot wisdom from others in my youth, but yes, I certainly ignored most of it. Time and experience has helped correct much of that, at a high cost. Reflection does make me realize that much of my management methods were learned from other hotheads, often from their yelling at me, and other employees for our poor performance. It is funny, I often think I would like to be able to now apologize to some of my previous employers for the PIA I could be at times. Most are gone or passed away now.
I will say that I have learned to see certain behaviors and characteristics in people rather quickly, and will not let the bad ones in the door here. And I am no longer bashful or slow to fire someone who sneaks those traits by me. While unpleasant going through the hothead phase, if you make it through those years, it does make for better and wiser managers.
Pat -- You're a funny guy. Seriously. I'm not sure everyone here appreciates your brand of dry humor.
Paul -- While you and I certainly disagree politically, you're absolutely right on this -- it is immature and totally unprofessional and nobody worth a tinker's dam is likely to tolerate that sort of behavior from an owner, at least not for long.
I've never known any business owner who acts that way, although there have been a few Fortune500 CEOs over the years who have gained that reputation, pretty much all of whom are also famous for not having the loyalty or respect of their employees.
Over a couple of decades, the only serious confrontation I've ever had with my employees in any business was in a meeting of all hands. 30+ people, about 20 of whom were the object of my very controlled wrath -- my salesmen (this was in the managed futures business in 1980.) All of the secretaries and other support people were there because I wanted EVERYONE to understand what the deal was.
I routinely spent over 50K/month generating leads at no cost to the salesmen, mostly by attending multi-day monetary/investment conferences as an exhibitor all over the U.S and places like London and Hong Kong.
I noticed that most of my sales guys were loading their daily call sheets with calls to existing customers or old prospects. This was manual entry -- pre-PC, (And before I got a 60K "mini-computer" that had a CPU that sat in a box that was about 18 cubic feet. The dang 12" 10MB hard drive wouldn't boot on winter weekends because the building turned the heat down.)
Maybe 7 or 8 of these guys were so fat and happy that they made no calls at all to any prospects, new or old.
This tendency of good salesman to stack arms is understandable. I know, I've got 20+ years of sales experience in 3 businesses I've owned. Anyway, I had 3 or 4 guys routinely making 30K+/month. At a 30% commission rate on the gross revenue their accounts generated for me. They're cool, money's great, who needs to work on new business?
And all of these guys' job was simply to open new accounts, all trading was done by me according to my proprietary system and rules. The average guys were making 10K/month. Some of them acted as if that was big money. What? Me make calls? Easier to fake it and just talk to people I already know.
After a month or so of watching all these guys get progressively lazier, when the evidence was incontrovertible across the board I called the meeting.
I simply told everyone in very measured tones that I was aware of what was going on, that I was not happy that I was spending serious money on leads that weren't being properly worked or worked at all, that there were a lot of people out there who would give their left arm and their first-born to be provided with no-cost, high-quality sales leads, that I expected everyone to try to do their very best to maximize their income and finally that anyone playing any version of the load-the-call-sheet game in the future would be summarily fired. There would be no second chances -- this WAS their second chance.
No shouting. No screaming. No yelling. No swearing. Just a calm statement of facts, without singling anyone out for any criticism.
This was all met with dead silence, as all of the sales guys were guilty of this behavior to some degree.
Anyone have any questions? Not a peep.
OK, meeting adjourned, let's go to work and make some money!
The problem disappeared.
Later, one of them told me he wanted to sink through the floor because he thought I had been talking about him. And he wasn't even anywhere near the worst offender. He was one of the younger guys and I felt bad that he had felt so bad. So, I took him out to dinner and we talked about how he was doing and what he could do better and I explained the problem in more detail, with the expectation that those words would also probably spread.
I never had to fire any of them for slacking on prospect calls. They all became veritable prospect follow-up machines.
I would contend that the yelling follows a loss of control.
All loss of control follows a violation or non existent policy.
Control = Prediction
Prediction = Policy
If you think about it you entire business experience is the accumulation of policy.
In Econ's case he put in a policy that you will follow up leads or you will no longer work here.
I think one of the primary policies in any business should be a metric for all jobs. To do otherwise is like trying to fly a 747 without any gauges, which might not turn out well.
Not to go crazy on it as it is much harder to create a metric for an individual production employee than you might think especially when you tie bonuses to it.
I think a lot of this stems from America's top down/Henry Ford policy. Excessive centralized policy making doesn't work. (I have seen a really good example of this somewhere, but I can't remember where at the moment.) IOW ideas dreamed up in the Ivory Tower usually are divorced from reality.
On the other hand I don't entirely agree with the bottom of policy that Lean espouses. I love the idea of constant improvement and the respect for worker that it engenders.
I think you need both top down and bottom up. The production metrics are useful but if you become outraged at what is on a piece of paper, I recommend that you go do the job yourself to see what is really going on, more often than not you will have an epiphany followed by an "oh".
On the other hand don't discount the bad apple, who unchecked, causes more anger that you realize, until you get rid of the bad apple.
But I suppose at the end of the day Dave has it right in that a lot of the yelling goes away with age and experience.
I like to keep my benches clean. I have reasons for this. I believe in a 5-S approach to everything we do.
I had a kid one time who, according to him, was the star pupil at the local woodworking college. Inasmuch as I have hired a half dozen "star" pupils from this school over the years I have come to conclude that the teachers take each student aside and whisper this in their ear. (I think it has something to do with keeping the tuition rolling in.)
Anyway since this kid couldn't pound his way out of a wet paper bag I figured he could at least mitigate for this weakness by not hobbling himself unnecessarily. For some reason, however, I couldn't seem to get the 5S program to stick with him. I would constantly have to remind him to pick up after himself. I figured I have enough on my plate to not also have to manage his bench so about the sixth time this became an issue I took him aside and explained very calmly the following litany:
"A 5-S program consists of SWEEP-SORT-SIMPLIFY- STANDARDIZE - SUSTAIN.
If you are going to use the tool again fairly soon it is okay to leave it where it is. If you're done with the tool or the scrap I want it put in it's ultimate resting spot at that time.
There is a mathematical reason for this.
Travel distance and time associated with putting something away is exactly the same whether this happens now or at the end of the day. There is no benefit conferred by delay. There is an upside, however, to performing this part of the 5S now rather than later. By keeping the area clean and sorting the things we are working on from the things we are not working on, and the tools we are working with from the tools we aren't working with we become more nimble and prepared to respond to ad hoc demands on our resources. For example, If a customer comes in with a door under their arm they have a place to put it. etc. etc.
I then, just as quietly and calmly, told him that the next time we had to have this little chat I was going to fire him on the spot and he could collect his coat and lunchbox and leave the building immediately.
I never had to yell at all. All I had to do was explain the policy and outline the consequences. The problem went away. Unfortunately he never did develop enough competence or speed to make himself useful. He was, however, able to list his training in Lean Manufacturing principles on his resume. He ended up getting hired by Boeing. I can't say for sure but I would guess those keywords had something to do with him getting his foot in the door.
I've never been a screamer. Always tried to use logic to get what I wanted from someone. Doesn't always work. I used to wait too long before I let someone go. Always hated to do it. But finally figured out I wasn't capable of helping them when I failed after several tries. It was time for them to get a government job.
A long time ago I had a smart girl friend. One day she said "you really p!!s me off because you win every argument." Why? "Because you cheat and use logic."
Doesn't work with everyone but a logical explanation often does.
I used to buy from Apple but that was 20 years ago. Since then I voted with my feet and went to other products that IMO had more value.Which of course illustrates the beauty of the invisible hand. Rather than being frustrated I suggest you consider using it to your best advantage.
At any rate I will take the invisible hand over the iron fist any day.
Haha, Pat, I have!! Natural deductive logic. Was the only one in the course that took it for fun and not because it was a course requirement ( I loved to blow student loans on intellectual whims. Still paying btw lol).
And I LOVED it. Still use it :) You took it too? Where you in philosophy?
I enjoyed reading everyone's answers, great forum.
i have taken a lot of leadership courses and i personally don't think yelling ever works, and if it does, it will only be for a short period of time.
it was mentioned earlier in the forum that different people are motivated in different ways. In a lot of the leadership courses, it is taught that the different generations have to be motivated in different ways. there are the baby boomers, gen x's and gen y's. The baby boomers would be more likely to respond to yelling and screaming, where as the gen y's need to be treated kinder and gentler, they have a ton of entitlement and need to know why they are being asked to do something. The gen x's are somewhere in between. It is very important to do your home work when hiring an employee and then get to know them after they are hired. Treat them the way you would like to be treated.
Being a great leader is not always easy, basically you need to get all your employees to respect you, and respect can never be demanded, only earned.
jim, Paul is correct, it was a financial product -- managed futures accounts, as noted above.
COMPLETELY different business than woodworking.
No raw materials, other than some client capital, which occupies the space of a checkbook.
No machinery or production process, other than an effective mathematical, automatic trading system.
No installation, other than a signed set of account forms.
We were just the adviser with a power of attorney to trade the account -- the broker held customer funds and generated confirms, etc.
It was a performance business. 20% of profits (I gave customers the first 100% on the house as an incentive to open an account and try us out.)
Perform or die.
Since the handful of original customers had about 1,400% (no, that's not a typo) gains after 8 months, and the average customer was up about 500% after 4 months, it wasn't too hard to open new accounts.
Minimum 25K, which would be close to 100K in 2015 dollars. These were metals accounts -- gold and silver. Some here probably don't remember the '79-'80 run in gold from 125 to 850 or silver from 5 to 50. Bunker Hunt, anyone? Those were the days. And the following collapse. We made money in both directions on both the rise and the decline -- nothing ever goes in a straight line, either up or down.
And the performance was generated with leverage that was never more than 3:1, very conservative in the futures markets where 20:1 was and remains routinely available. I shudder to think about what the results would have been at 6:1 or 8:1 or 10:1. But, being somewhat risk-averse is generally good policy. Leverage is always a two-edged sword. Using (relatively) low levels of leverage was a sales point.
Am I boring you yet? Most people's eyes will have glazed over by this point.
Anyway, my reps got 30% of whatever fees I charged their customer's accounts. Why on Earth would you slack off for even a minute, never mind a month or two?
As a sales rep, you had essentially 6% (30% of 20%) of the upside on all of the money in your customer's accounts beyond the first 100%. With zero downside if no money was made. With no investment on the part of the sales rep beyond being willing to make sales calls.
Do the math. A 100% gain (often done in a month) on 10 million of customer money with 20% performance fees is about 2 million. The 10 or 12 salesmen collectively got paid 600K, give or take.
The rest was mine. I won't bore you with the minor fees that paid the overhead, but it's obvious why I wanted these guys on the phones until their ears fell off.
What amazed me was that these guys would coast and ignore the very prospects (expensive to me, but at no direct cost to them) which gave them an extraordinary income.
Maybe it's just human nature. Or maybe bad hiring by me. Whatever it is, one way or another, people seem to get fat and happy and ease off instead of maximizing, no matter how much money is involved.
I've noticed this tendency in other much less lucrative businesses both before and after the managed futures business.
But, no matter how lazy or incompetent people may be I don't think yelling at anyone ever accomplishes anything.
Turn the incompetents into free-agents who can waste the time of some other employer. Try to motivate the lazy. If that doesn't work (and usually it doesn't, although it did in the rare case of my commodity guys) fire them, too. Pleasantly.
Screamers get old and tend to be ignored. I once had a boss that was very quiet, but when he did speak it was always soft and well thought out, Everyone listened. When he was really pissed he would leave and go for coffee, when he came back he would have a short well thought out discussion and problems were solved. A very professional person, I enjoyed my time there. Screamers are tagged as Assholes.
"Since the handful of original customers had about 1,400% (no, that's not a typo) gains after 8 months, and the average customer was up about 500% after 4 months, it wasn't too hard to open new accounts"
I don't want to jump to conclusions but I'm guessing that the FIRE sector is more profitable than cabinetmaking?
"And the performance was generated with leverage that was never more than 3:1"
I'm a thinking Goldman Sachs would fire you on the spot for anything that wasn't leveraged at least 40 to 1?
FORUM GUIDELINES: Please review the guidelines below before posting at WOODWEB's Interactive Message Boards(return to top)
WOODWEB is a professional industrial woodworking site. Hobbyist and homeowner woodworking questions are inappropriate.
Messages should be kept reasonably short and on topic, relating to the focus of the forum. Responses should relate to the original question.
A valid email return address must be included with each message.
Advertising is inappropriate. The only exceptions are the Classified Ads Exchange, Machinery Exchange, Lumber Exchange, and Job Opportunities and Services Exchange. When posting listings in these areas, review the posting instructions carefully.
Subject lines may be edited for length and clarity.
"Cross posting" is not permitted. Choose the best forum for your question, and post your question at one forum only.
Messages requesting private responses will be removed - Forums are designed to provide information and assistance for all of our visitors. Private response requests are appropriate at WOODWEB's Exchanges and Job Opportunities and Services.
Messages that accuse businesses or individuals of alleged negative actions or behavior are inappropriate since WOODWEB is unable to verify or substantiate the claims.
Posts with the intent of soliciting answers to surveys are not appropriate. Contact WOODWEB for more information on initiating a survey.
Excessive forum participation by an individual upsets the balance of a healthy forum atmosphere. Individuals who excessively post responses containing marginal content will be considered repeat forum abusers.
Responses that initiate or support inappropriate and off-topic discussion of general politics detract from the professional woodworking focus of WOODWEB, and will be removed.
Participants are encouraged to use their real name when posting. Intentionally using another persons name is prohibited, and posts of this nature will be removed at WOODWEB's discretion.
Carefully review your message before clicking on the "Send Message" button - you will not be able to revise the message once it has been sent.
You will be notified of responses to the message(s) you posted via email. Be sure to enter your email address correctly.
WOODWEB's forums are a highly regarded resource for professional woodworkers. Messages and responses that are crafted in a professional and civil manner strengthen this resource. Messages that do not reflect a professional tone reduce the value of our forums.
Messages are inappropriate when their content: is deemed libelous in nature or is based on rumor, fails to meet basic standards of decorum, contains blatant advertising or inappropriate emphasis on self promotion (return to top).
Libel: Posts which defame an individual or organization, or employ a tone which can be viewed as malicious in nature. Words, pictures, or cartoons which expose a person or organization to public hatred, shame, disgrace, or ridicule, or induce an ill opinion of a person or organization, are libelous.
Improper Decorum: Posts which are profane, inciting, disrespectful or uncivil in tone, or maliciously worded. This also includes the venting of unsubstantiated opinions. Such messages do little to illuminate a given topic, and often have the opposite effect. Constructive criticism is acceptable (return to top).
Advertising: The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not an advertising venue. Companies participating in a Forum discussion should provide specific answers to posted questions. WOODWEB suggests that businesses include an appropriately crafted signature in order to identify their company. A well meaning post that seems to be on-topic but contains a product reference may do your business more harm than good in the Forum environment. Forum users may perceive your references to specific products as unsolicited advertising (spam) and consciously avoid your web site or services. A well-crafted signature is an appropriate way to advertise your services that will not offend potential customers. Signatures should be limited to 4-6 lines, and may contain information that identifies the type of business you're in, your URL and email address (return to top).
Repeated Forum Abuse:
Forum participants who repeatedly fail to follow WOODWEB's Forum Guidelines may encounter difficulty when attempting to post messages.
There are often situations when the original message asks for opinions: "What is the best widget for my type of shop?". To a certain extent, the person posting the message is responsible for including specific questions within the message. An open ended question (like the one above) invites responses that may read as sales pitches. WOODWEB suggests that companies responding to such a question provide detailed and substantive replies rather than responses that read as a one-sided product promotion. It has been WOODWEB's experience that substantive responses are held in higher regard by our readers (return to top).
The staff of WOODWEB assume no responsibility for the accuracy, content, or outcome of any posting transmitted at WOODWEB's Message Boards. Participants should undertake the use of machinery, materials and methods discussed at WOODWEB's Message Boards after considerate evaluation, and at their own risk. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages it deems inappropriate. (return to top)
Forum Posting Form Guidelines
The name you enter in this field will be the name that appears with your post or response (return to form).
Personal or business website links must point to the author's website. Inappropriate links will be removed without notice, and at WOODWEB's sole discretion. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
Your e-mail address will not be publicly viewable. Forum participants will be able to contact you using a contact link (included with your post) that is substituted for your actual address. You must include a valid email address in this field. (return to form)
Subject may be edited for length and clarity. Subject lines should provide an indication of the content of your post. (return to form)
Thread Related Link and Image Guidelines
Thread Related Links posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should point to locations that provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related Link that directs visitors to an area with inappropriate content will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
Thread Related File Uploads
Thread Related Files posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. Video Files: acceptable video formats are: .MOV .AVI .WMV .MPEG .MPG .MP4 (Image Upload Tips) If you encounter any difficulty when uploading video files, E-mail WOODWEB for assistance. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related File that contains inappropriate content will be removed, and uploaded files that are not directly related to the message thread will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links, files, or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
The editors, writers, and staff at WOODWEB try to promote safe practices.
What is safe for one woodworker under certain conditions may not be safe
for others in different circumstances. Readers should undertake the use
of materials and methods discussed at WOODWEB after considerate evaluation,
and at their own risk.