Woodworking Business

You are not logged in. [ Login ] Why log in
(NOTE: Login is not required to post)

Post a Response
The staff at WOODWEB assume no responsibility for the accuracy, content, or outcome of any posting transmitted at any WOODWEB Forum. Participants should undertake the use of machinery, materials and methods discussed after considerate evaluation, and at their own risk.
Your Name:
Your Website:
Email Address:
Subject: Re: CNC can't keep up

Message:

(read message guidelines).
Note: Do not use the below fields to advertise your business - only for links related to the discussion.
Thread Related Link URL:
Thread Related Link Title:
  To "point" to an image (picture) from another website, provide the URL (Web Address) of the file ( include ONE reference to http:// )
Thread Related Image URL:

Date of your Birth:

Upload a Thread Related File:
File Types: Image (gif-jpg-png-bmp), PDF, Sketchup, Video (mov avi wmv mpeg mpg mp4 ogg). (Image Upload Tips)

I have read the Site User Agreement and agree with the Terms

  <= Check to receive e-mail notification of responses

Message Thread:

CNC can't keep up

3/12/18       
Travis

Hey guys,
We are in a situation where we have been completely swamped beginning at the end of last year and continuing into this year as well. We are trying to get jobs out on schedule as best as possible but it is proving to be a little difficult as of late. We have determined our bottle neck is the cnc. It cannot keep up with the amount of parts that we need cutout daily. We also have two shifts running the cnc trying to keep up. My question is how many of you, when you are experiencing a busy stretch, cut your ¼’’ backs out on the cnc? We have thought about cutting all ¼’’ backs on the table saw to free up time to cut ¾’’ material on the cnc. This could be anywhere from 10-20 sheets a day. Have any of your shops cut ¼’’ backs on the table saw and let the cnc stick to the ¾’’ material? Thanks

3/12/18       #2: CNC can't keep up ...
Puzzleman Member

Yes, that is a great idea. Removing some of the load from the bottleneck will result in a quicker turnaround. I have done this in my shop of removing some of the load from the CNC by using other resources to get the work accomplished.

After doing it on a temporary basis, we now do this year round as it made sense to continue doing that way. Freed up employee time to put toward other tasks that make more money than what they were doing before.

3/12/18       #3: CNC can't keep up ...
Mark B Member

We are a small shop and we will even cut ANY backs or square parts on the saw while the CNC is plowing out dado's, rabbets, shelf pins, and non-square parts. If we are busy or there isnt other pressing things to do we will just pull at the backs from the nest and output them as a cutlist. Cutting rectangular parts with lighter material is one place that I think I can actual keep up or even beat the CNC with regards to time. No loading the program, no blowing down the table, no dealing with off falls, and so on.

3/12/18       #4: CNC can't keep up ...
B

We cut all 1/4" backs and drawer bottoms on the saw.

There isn't any time savings after you figure in sheet load/unload and cleaning the spoilboard.

3/12/18       #5: CNC can't keep up ...
Karl E Brogger  Member

Website: http://www.sogncabinets.com

Do you have or have room for an auto unload table?

3/12/18       #6: CNC can't keep up ...
Bill

Can you fit a second machine with offload?
Sounds like you have the business to justify it and the profit to pay for it with cash flow.

Not knowing what you existing Cnc is perhaps an upgraded machine might get you there.

3/13/18       #7: CNC can't keep up ...
Travis

I appreciate the responses everyone. We do have an auto unload table on our newer Weeke cnc. One thing I did not mention, because I wanted your feedback first, is we do have an older secondary cnc that we outgrew. It sits next to our newer cnc but it does not have an auto unload table. It seems like we are always having repairs made to this older cnc as well which can get costly. We've tossed around the idea to sell this older cnc and buy a $3500 table saw for cutting backs,etc.?

3/13/18       #8: CNC can't keep up ...
Jerry Cunningham

Yes you should definitely cut repetitive square cuts on the table saw. Or if you have the space you could buy an older beam saw for next to nothing.

You have to give it to the big CNC manufacturers, they did a wonderful job at marketing to convince people that they just have to have a $200k machine to cut squares from a sheet of plywood.

3/13/18       #9: CNC can't keep up ...
Bill

I don't think you need a $200,000 machine to do that. Let's say it is $100,000, Still not cheap!

What are the benefits of owning a CNC.
1.) Yield will be better in most cases.
2.) Tool cost will be less. I was shocked when we got a CNC that a router bit would cut longer than a saw blade by a lot.
3.) Speed, by a large amount.
4.) Versatility, it can do more than cut squares.
5.) Ease of use. The operator needs very little training to get an excellent results.
6.) The operator can be doing something else when the machine is running
7.) The machine does not get sick, come in hangover or get in a fight with its wife.
8.) Its more accurate.
9.) It does not make mistakes.
10.) It is hard to hurt yourself with a CNC machine.

What are you paying a person capable of running a saw all in?
I can't speak for everyone but if you offer benefits, paid vacation,worker comp and the administration of an employee it has to cost $30 an hour minimum. Thats $30 x 8 x 252 (labor x hours x days) or $60K a year.

Once you reach critical mass a CNC is a no brainer. If you need person dedicated to cutting parts boring, grooving, pocket holes..... a CNC is a good investment. That person is usually one of the more talented people.

If you had a CNC you would need to seriously consider how you assembled things. There is efficiency to be had by leveraging what a CNC can do.

So if you have the work and you drop 100K you can expect a $30-60K a year benefit for 8 years, Where can you get a return on your investment like that? I am not talking firing people I am talking deploying them to increase production.

Have you ever heard someone say I bought a CNC router and it was the worst investment I ever made? I have not.

Have you ever heard someone say I got a router and I can't believe I waited so long to get it? I have lots of times, it sure came out of my mouth.

Just trying to add to the dialog, at a certain point a Beam saw or slider or vertical make sense, I would not add a 10" table saw to cut plywood. It was not made for that.

Good luck

3/14/18       #10: CNC can't keep up ...
TomB

Have you thought about/do you use 3 flute outline/dado tooling? Your feed speeds can increase a ton from 1 flute or even 2. We went from a single flute diamond running around 175ipm to a 2 flute comp running 500ipm. The time difference per sheet is huge.

3/14/18       #11: CNC can't keep up ...
Travis

Tom, I'll check into this. Right now I know we're using 2 flute bits. Thanks

3/14/18       #12: CNC can't keep up ...
DOM

Website: http://naply.com

I use onsrud 60-126mw. I run 1000-1300ipm all day in 18mm Russian birch.

3/14/18       #13: CNC can't keep up ...
Bill

Make sure you call the tool maker. You have to include horsepower in the flutes,RPM, feed speed equation.

3/14/18       #14: CNC can't keep up ...
Scott

Travis,
Like it was mentioned earlier you need a beam saw, You can cut multiple sheets at the same time , then you can machine your gables for hardware on your cnc. This is way faster and more efficient than cutting individual sheets on your cnc.

3/14/18       #15: CNC can't keep up ...
Scott

If you want to crank out boxes, you need a Beam saw, Cnc, dowel machine and a case clamp. You need an edgebander regardless of how you assemble of course.

3/15/18       #16: CNC can't keep up ...
Larry

Our system separates the rectangular non-face machined parts and sends them through the panel saw optimizer, down load to beam saw. Even though single sheet cutting on the beam saw isn't very efficient it saves router time. I wouldn't cut parts that need to be rectangular on a table saw.

3/15/18       #17: CNC can't keep up ...
Hen Bob Member

I 2nd Scott and Larry's comments. Keep the router machining the complex parts and everything else can be done on the beam saw..

3/16/18       #18: CNC can't keep up ...
Alan F. Member

The beam saws with multiple pushers and grippers that can cut different size parts at the same time are much more efficient for single sheet, small batch, lots of unique programs solutions than a traditional beam saw that is rip / rotate /crosscut a strip at a time.

I would estimate at least 35% faster and it would be higher with a turn table.

3/19/18       #19: CNC can't keep up ...
cabinetmaker

Check your feed rates and what is your nesting strategy in relation to the batch size ? Also, how many days are you nesting ahead of assembly ?

 

Buy & Sell Exchanges | Forums | Galleries | Site Map

FORUM GUIDELINES: Please review the guidelines below before posting at WOODWEB's Interactive Message Boards (return to top)

  • WOODWEB is a professional industrial woodworking site. Hobbyist and homeowner woodworking questions are inappropriate.
  • Messages should be kept reasonably short and on topic, relating to the focus of the forum. Responses should relate to the original question.
  • A valid email return address must be included with each message.
  • Advertising is inappropriate. The only exceptions are the Classified Ads Exchange, Machinery Exchange, Lumber Exchange, and Job Opportunities and Services Exchange. When posting listings in these areas, review the posting instructions carefully.
  • Subject lines may be edited for length and clarity.
  • "Cross posting" is not permitted. Choose the best forum for your question, and post your question at one forum only.
  • Messages requesting private responses will be removed - Forums are designed to provide information and assistance for all of our visitors. Private response requests are appropriate at WOODWEB's Exchanges and Job Opportunities and Services.
  • Messages that accuse businesses or individuals of alleged negative actions or behavior are inappropriate since WOODWEB is unable to verify or substantiate the claims.
  • Posts with the intent of soliciting answers to surveys are not appropriate. Contact WOODWEB for more information on initiating a survey.
  • Excessive forum participation by an individual upsets the balance of a healthy forum atmosphere. Individuals who excessively post responses containing marginal content will be considered repeat forum abusers.
  • Responses that initiate or support inappropriate and off-topic discussion of general politics detract from the professional woodworking focus of WOODWEB, and will be removed.
  • Participants are encouraged to use their real name when posting. Intentionally using another persons name is prohibited, and posts of this nature will be removed at WOODWEB's discretion.
  • Comments, questions, or criticisms regarding Forum policies should be directed to WOODWEB's Systems Administrator
    (return to top).

    Carefully review your message before clicking on the "Send Message" button - you will not be able to revise the message once it has been sent.

    You will be notified of responses to the message(s) you posted via email. Be sure to enter your email address correctly.

    WOODWEB's forums are a highly regarded resource for professional woodworkers. Messages and responses that are crafted in a professional and civil manner strengthen this resource. Messages that do not reflect a professional tone reduce the value of our forums.

    Messages are inappropriate when their content: is deemed libelous in nature or is based on rumor, fails to meet basic standards of decorum, contains blatant advertising or inappropriate emphasis on self promotion (return to top).

    Libel:   Posts which defame an individual or organization, or employ a tone which can be viewed as malicious in nature. Words, pictures, or cartoons which expose a person or organization to public hatred, shame, disgrace, or ridicule, or induce an ill opinion of a person or organization, are libelous.

    Improper Decorum:   Posts which are profane, inciting, disrespectful or uncivil in tone, or maliciously worded. This also includes the venting of unsubstantiated opinions. Such messages do little to illuminate a given topic, and often have the opposite effect. Constructive criticism is acceptable (return to top).

    Advertising:   The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not an advertising venue. Companies participating in a Forum discussion should provide specific answers to posted questions. WOODWEB suggests that businesses include an appropriately crafted signature in order to identify their company. A well meaning post that seems to be on-topic but contains a product reference may do your business more harm than good in the Forum environment. Forum users may perceive your references to specific products as unsolicited advertising (spam) and consciously avoid your web site or services. A well-crafted signature is an appropriate way to advertise your services that will not offend potential customers. Signatures should be limited to 4-6 lines, and may contain information that identifies the type of business you're in, your URL and email address (return to top).

    Repeated Forum Abuse: Forum participants who repeatedly fail to follow WOODWEB's Forum Guidelines may encounter difficulty when attempting to post messages.

    There are often situations when the original message asks for opinions: "What is the best widget for my type of shop?". To a certain extent, the person posting the message is responsible for including specific questions within the message. An open ended question (like the one above) invites responses that may read as sales pitches. WOODWEB suggests that companies responding to such a question provide detailed and substantive replies rather than responses that read as a one-sided product promotion. It has been WOODWEB's experience that substantive responses are held in higher regard by our readers (return to top).

    The staff of WOODWEB assume no responsibility for the accuracy, content, or outcome of any posting transmitted at WOODWEB's Message Boards. Participants should undertake the use of machinery, materials and methods discussed at WOODWEB's Message Boards after considerate evaluation, and at their own risk. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages it deems inappropriate. (return to top)


  • Forum Posting Help
    Your Name The name you enter in this field will be the name that appears with your post or response (return to form).
    Your Website Personal or business website links must point to the author's website. Inappropriate links will be removed without notice, and at WOODWEB's sole discretion. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    E-Mail Address Your e-mail address will not be publicly viewable. Forum participants will be able to contact you using a contact link (included with your post) that is substituted for your actual address. You must include a valid email address in this field. (return to form)
    Subject Subject may be edited for length and clarity. Subject lines should provide an indication of the content of your post. (return to form)
    Thread Related Link and Image Guidelines Thread Related Links posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should point to locations that provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related Link that directs visitors to an area with inappropriate content will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    Thread Related File Uploads Thread Related Files posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. Video Files: acceptable video formats are: .MOV .AVI .WMV .MPEG .MPG .MP4 (Image Upload Tips)   If you encounter any difficulty when uploading video files, E-mail WOODWEB for assistance. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related File that contains inappropriate content will be removed, and uploaded files that are not directly related to the message thread will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links, files, or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)