We are a 2 man shop turning out mostly frameless cabinetry....Sometimes FF inset. I have a job coming up where the contractor specified "1/2" overlay WITH A FF"! Weird and outdated I think but hey, my opinion matters not.
Question is what type of hinge and how to simplify installation of slides(tandem)? Compact Blum have soft close in 1/2" overlay?
For tandems, I'd like to attempt using one screw into face frame and mounting with the "clips" on back (vs. packing out sides)
How do you locate the bracket for installation?
Is there anything to keep in mind for an overlay face frame job? Or is it as easy as it sounds?
Lastly, I asked the contractor what size face frame and she said she'd never been asked that in her 35 year career. I told her we could do any size being it is all custom. Is there a common size reveal between doors and fronts? Thanks all
We still do a lot of traditional face frame cabinetry with partial overlay doors.
Typically, I use 1 1/4" wide stiles, and a 1 3/4" wide top rail, 1 1/2" wide rail between top drawer and lower doors and/or lower drawers, and a flush filler on the bottom (with 3/4" ply used for the cases.)
Hinges and plates can be combined to give you your 1/2" overlay. Might be easier to go with a standard 110 degree full overlay hinge and a frame mount plate (full size hinge) and get a 5/8" coverage VS 1/2". I prefer the full size hinges myself.
I always use build outs to mount my slides - using the Moventos (same installation) I just build out the face frame with either basswood, or Baltic birch ply for the full depth. Typically, with my 1 1/4" wide stiles, and a 1/8" left on the outer section of the frame, I build out 3/8". I have thought about the plastic clips but the plastic breaks over time - Ive replaced them on other kitchens too often. A wood or ply build out looks nice (I sand and finish them) and will never fail.
As a professional your opinion does matter...whether they recognize it or not
I did face frame for several years until I came to my senses.
If you have to do face frame you can use metal rear brackets. Most frame shops here only use a plywood end and a face frame of whatever length with no partitions with everything riding on one 5/8" screw into the face frame.
Somehow that makes perfect sense opposed to a frameless box mounted slide attached attached at multiple points along its length???
I prefer to use partitions flush with the inside of the frame but will use a single partition behind stiles.
The good news is your working with a builder that has no clue, leaving the details to your discretion.
I usually make the frame width 3 times the plywood thickness to facilitate pad outs.
For factory made, stock cabinets ˝” overlay is by far the most common nationwide followed by 1-1/4” overlay. The styles and rails are almost always 1-1’2”. These are 100% a compact style hinge. Just take a walk through the kitchen department at a Lowes or Home Depot.
For custom cabinets, the size of the stiles and rails and the type of hinge seems to be a regional preference and you will find a mix of compact style hinges and 2 piece long arm Euro hinges. “My grandfather did this so I do too”.
Rarely do I see stiles less than 1-1/2” and they can be as much as 2” for custom cabinets. Again, this seems to be a regional thing. There are some areas where 1-5/8” stiles and rails are common (Parts of Kentucky for example). For custom cabinets, the door overlay is all over the place, still with ˝” and 1-1/4” overlay being most common. If you look at the (compact) hinge overlays offered by major hinge manufacturers you will find hinge overlays anywhere from 1/4” up to 1-5/8” to meet the market by market demand.
In some areas in the Midwest you can barely give away compact style hinges to custom shops. They are generally viewed as a lower end production hinge with definite design disadvantages. In other more price sensitive areas or where larger numbers of cabinets are being produced daily by regional cabinet “manufacturers” the compact hinge is preferred largely due to price. The compact hinge group does however have the advantage of accomplishing the larger overlays on wider face frames.
With the 1 1/4" stiles I use, and the typical 5/16" overlay hinge I use you see 15/16" of the frame once the door is hung.
Just a question, to no one in particular...
What is the purpose of using a 2" stile, and then covering it up with a 1 1/4" overlay hinge? You still see approx the same amount of frame, but you have a much smaller opening, larger build out to deal with, and more material used.
Visually, weve been making framed cabinets like we do since the 70's - up here in our neck of the woods they seem to be similar to the factory made options as well. I know varying regions do things differently.
To me, the whole point of a framed cabinet is for the look of a framed cabinet - the space between the doors and fronts. Sure, it also makes a more sturdy box if done well (we groove our frames to be set over the box and glued on, with tenons used on the frame joints - makes a very sturdy unit) but for all intents and purposes, a frame-less box made from 3/4" stock and well engineered (joinery that is) is strong enough also.
The popularity of the full-overlay, framed cabinet really makes no sense to me. Looks the same as a frame-less, but more work, more cost and no benefits IMO.
Again, just a question. Since we are a custom shop, I build all types of cabinets depending upon what the customer wants.. so I am not set on one style or the other.
Chris, what you describe as "weird and outdated" is 99.9% of what we build.
2" face frame all the way around with 1/2" overlay doors and drawers. I use Salice undermounts. I do use the back bracket. I simply cut a strip of 1/2" ply and then cut to length 3/16" longer than the face frame opening and screw the brackets to that. I've got a jig that sits on the floor of the cabinet that holds that strip along with the slides in place until I put the drawer in and line it up and then screw that strip to the back of the cabinet. Piece of cake.
Thanks for the replies. Mike, no disrespect, I just haven't seen any shops or requests for my shop building overlay face frame cabinets. It seems a thing that is mostly mass produced. Let me get this straight...with 1/2" overlay on a 1 1/2" stile the reveal from door to door is 1/2"? The reveal from door edge to can end is 1"? Unless, as some others suggest different size stiles and rails according to a constant reveal throughout they job.
Any tips for mounting face frames to boxes as per ~1/8-1/4" proud of cab edge? Indexing with a biscuit jointer with a piece of ~1/8/1/4" scrap? What is the relation of offset from cabinet ply to inside of frame? Is anything flush or generally 1/16-1/8" lip (such as frame to bottom plane of cab material)? Rabbeting or dadoing frames for indexing I get but that reduces the thickness making pocket screwing a matter of 1" screws?
Chris, I didn't feel disrespected, I thought it was funny.
I'll tell you a little about the way I do it.
First of all I use 1/2" prefinished ply for everything.
I use 2" face stock all the way around except for when cabinets go to ceiling and then I use a 3" for the top.
On my finished ends, if they are raised panel I mill a dado 1/4" deep 1/4" over from the edge for the panel side to set into. That panel will get pocket screwed and glued at assembly time the inside will get capped with the prefinished ply. If the finished ends are 1/2" ply then I mill the groove halfway deep and the side gets glued and pin nails behind the lip angled toward the face frame. It makes it almost invisible. As far as attaching frames to cabinet, I think most build the box and then attach the frame, that's always seemed backward to me but I guess it ever what you get accustomed to. I start out with the frame that is now finished and laying face down with the bottom toward me.
If it's got a finished side I put that in first, then the floor gets glued and shot with 3/4" staples through a cleat on the bottom of the floor. Then the other side will get pocket screwed to the face if unfinished. Toe kick goes in next, pocket screwed to the finished end and shot to the unfinished. Pocket screwed to the bottom of the deck. The cabinet is then flipped up on its base and if it get a fixed shelf it's put in. The 1/2" back gets pocket screwed to the finished end and shot to the unfinished. Then the floor and shelf get shot. On the unfinished ends I set the side over 1/2" from the edge, this comes in handy if you need to trim an edge down to fit between two walls or scribe. So basically everything on my cabinets get shot or pocket screwed. It's the fastest and strongest method that I've found and has worked for years and never a failure. As far as looks, I looked through my cabinet pics and this one is the best I found to show what it looks like.
Mike, call me old school - but I'd take that look (in your photo) over a frameless look any day of the week. While I prefer the look of inset doors with frames - I'd still go overlay such as yours rather than frameless. Not looking for arguments here, I build both - it's what the client wants or is willing to pay for that matters, not my personal preferences.
I do abhor how I've seen many kitchens with up to 4" styles between doors. Yikes! ;-)
Anyway - that's a nice looking kitchen you posted there!
I too hate the look of the wide stiles, don't know why anyone would do that unless they bought some reject doors at the flea market and made the cabinets to fit them.
I like the look of face frames better as well.
I have never been asked to build a frameless cabinet. Everything is 1/2" overlay and 1" reveal. Frame pieces are 1-1/2 or 2".
I cut 1/4" tongues on the sides and corresponding grooves on the back of the face frame some glue and clamps and you have it.
For mounting drawer slides I try to flush out what I can when cutting the tongue and groove. For the rest i use 2.5" wide strips of plywood the length of the slides.
I'm with Mike Fuson on this one, I've built FF since 1971. I am in Texas, I have built 1 set of frameless cabinets in my career and my customer was from Poland. I also absolutely can not sell a MDF door or a single piece of particle board here. Every part of the country is different I guess. JBDyer
I am up in Ontario, Canada and one of the last few I think doing FF...seems the entire country has switched over to Frameless and you don't even see the box store's selling anything else anymore! Good for me though...I am in a niche market and need to make FF due to my rustic woods I use. Anyway, here is what I do and after reading the above posts it seems like I am different than most.
My stile's are always 1 1/2" or 3/4" (finished gable ends are 1.5" and where to upper's come together I make those stile's .75". My finished exposed gables get nothing but matching panel's mimicking the door's (a fridge gable with upper's and lower's butting up to it is .75" vc-matching plywood). The only time I go wider on the stile's is for built in appliances such as a wall oven or high end fridge that requires wider rails. All upper cabinets have 1.5" top and bottom rail's. My base cabinet's (usually always full drawer boxes) have a 1.5" top rail, and up to 3-1" mid and bottom rail's. My face frames are ALWAYS flush with the cabinet interior except the upper rail which will over lap the box by .75"
For hinge's I use nothing but standard 110d half over lay Blum/Blumotion with there 0mm Faceframe adapter plate. This combination give's me a 5/16" overlay and I build my door's to have 1/4" overlay on the top and bottom frames. For drawer slide's I use nothing but 560H and 566H Blumotion slide's. I use a Hettich drawer slide drilling jig and use euro screw's for fasting all the slides to the boxes...works great on the Blum slides and always have the perfect adjustment! There are NO filler strips between the cabinet boxes and the slide's and everything always works great!
I guess looking at the way I do my FaceFrame's its more of a hybrid sort of speak with the flush interior's....works for me as I can't find edge banding or plywood for half of the rustic stuff I am getting into these day's!!!
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