Thinking about switching The way we fasten our FF to the Box, right now we glue and pocket screw the outside of the box to the FF, we keep our FF and the inside of the box flush (easy on hardware installation), I'm thinking in dado my FF sides, bottom and top 1/4'' from the inside edge, pocket screw and glue, but I'm concern about the 1/4'' step at the bottom of upper and lowers. How you guys treat your bottom rail to the box?Flush or step? Noted that our FF is 1'' thick and we are thinking on dado 1/4'' deep. I can set up a dedicated table saw with power feeder to speed the dado process. thanks for any tips
Eddie, I make the deck flush , it creates a catching edge otherwise and looks like it does not fit or more like a modular not custom imo.
I usually put a few pins in the lower rail and simply clamp the face onto the box.
I know a lot of guys pocket screw the box to the face but honestly to me they look ugly either inside or under a wall cabinet where you see the pockets.
What thickness of material are you using on your cases? We use all 3/4 prefinished maple ply for interiors unless it's a matching interior. We pocket screw only the frame onto the box, frames are all finished flat then appiled. We also skin the underside of all uppers with 1/4. Goes pretty fast as long as everything is going normal.
If your thinking about the dado why not just ditch the dado for a rebate. Rebate all your face frame material one edge and then rebate your rails on your faceframe accordingly. It will leave you a rebate around the interior of the faceframe to accept your box and then just glue and pin the box to the faceframe.
Seems way overkill to me but if your ply thickness was consistent it would sure make assembly easy and the faceframe/box connection would be bulletproof.
We build exactly as you say you are currently. Flush interiors (sides and bottoms) mainly to make hardware installation a snap. Pockets screws and glue.
I could see going the rebate route if we were in a higher dollar market but were not. The lip at the deck if the faceframe isnt flush would seem to take an utter beating in anything other than a drawer base.
Mark_ The rebate will a no-no for us (thanks for effort). I'm not too concerned with the 1/4'' lip on the lower since our lowers are either with drawers or doors with pull out, and we use a SS liner in our sink base. I am more concerned with the uppers, maybe I should keep the uppers flush at the bottom and step everywhere else.
Our cases are tops flush to the top of the face frame, bottoms are set to be 1/8 below bottom rail top edge. Sides are 1/32 in on both sides, basically flush. Frames are 1 1/2 on sides, 2 1/4 bottom rails and 4 tops on our uppers. Bases are 1 1/2 on all sides with 2 1/4 between doors and drawer fronts. We use 2 1/4 alongside walls to allow for the awesome job that framers and drywallers do.
We are pretty much the same as Dustin. I think of our face frames as thick edge banding. We use the undersized 3/4" prefinished ply to our advantage. It gives us a 1/32-1/16" overlap. That is bot & sides. Castle pocket screws and glue.
Why do you use 1" frames? By dadoing you are kinda sorta making them 3/4". I understand if you are using thick doors, but that is not common.
Thanks again for the replies guys, the 1'' FF and Doors are common here in Northeast, we don't even order 4/4'' material anymore. just finished a job that the Arcquitect request 1 1/4'' doors and drawer fronts. Hey, whatever they want!!!!
D Brown, I believe some guys leave 1/8'' on the deck because it makes it ease on the masking tape for finishing or even for sanding. I'm still doing flush all around, but we've always struggle to accomplish a nice flush surface all around, doing to material thickness variance and so on.
We sand the inside edge of the bot rail with then it finishes even with the ply. Its a 1/16" proud of the ply. You would not even notice it. Its not tall enough to catch a glass. The transition from prefinished ply to a faceframe is just that a transition. If the face frame is white and the box is varnished maple who is going to notice.
I always ask myself if I would do it in my own house. Yes, I did it in my own kitchen.
We are in CT. We occasionally get a request for thicker doors. Definitely not every job. Where are you making sawdust?
Just wanted to jump in here quickly to mention that we have many customers using our Lamello Zeta P2 along with Tenso P-14 connectors to attach face frames to cabinet boxes. They're self-clamping, invisible fasteners that allow the user to flat finish their face frames without having to mask off the cabinet box and then install in the shop, or even on site after scribing. A lot of guys use a mitered face frame return panel and these connectors are unlike any others for clamping miters too. Don't take my word for it though - do a search here on Woodweb for "Lamello Zeta" or "Tenso" and see what your colleagues say about it.
10/24 #16: Face Frame Cabinet Construction ...
Chris H, how do you adjust the Lamelllo Zeta P2 to account for inner reveals on the face frame? We typically set our inside face frame edges 3mm from the inner box? Is there a video showing a face frame being applied to a box using the Tenso?
That face frame application video is first in the queue for our next round of video footage that we'll be shooting this winter. There is a link below to the YouTube channel where you can see our Lamello videos, and the "Lamello Lessons" series that I host - that is where the video will live once it's shot and edited.
There is an easy way to offset for ff reveals using the 2- and 4mm spacer plates included with every Zeta P2 machine, or if you need something specific like 3mm, it's possible to use the adjustable stop square which also comes with the machine. Until I get the video up, I'd be glad to help explain in more detail over the phone if you want to call into the office.
I've done it a lot of different ways over the years and settled on this no brainer for me at least. Boxes are 3/4 prefinished plywood, face frames are always finished separate from the boxes...absolutely no runs this way and they don't get banged up being on the cabinets and getting moved around. Deck is flush, sides are flush with the insides of the ff for easy hardware install. Measure the inside of face frame and cut your deck, top and back 3/4 longer. Cut 3/8" dado for the the deck and top and cut 1/2 rabbet for the back. I screw and glue my boxes together...you never have any fasteners showing on the box or face frame. Screw the frames on when they are finished and your done. I would not glue the frames on.....1. Your gluing to a plywood edge which doesn't hold glue worth a damn and 2. They don't need to be glued when they are screw all the way around, sides, top and bottom.
3. What if you need to remove one for any reason.....you're screwed!
All of the pocket screws and screws though dados are hidden with 3/4 finished RP ends.
Jeff, All our doors and drawer fronts are 1'' Thick, so I keep all the same thickness. Why? well 8 out of 10 of my customers request 1" doors, so for that reason it became standard for us. I haven't bought 4/4'' lumber in a long time.
I was about to make a similar comment when I saw your post Larry. Most customers don't know what a face frame is or how thick a cabinet door is. Seems like an unnecessary expense on both you and your customers. Seems like you might have weight issues on a large maple door as well and overstress your hinges over time. At any rate...to each his own. Just seemed odd to me.
I think I already stated that but I'll do it again. You don't need to. If you don't think 10-16 pocket screws will hold a face frame, you're crazy. Contrary to your earlier post, none of them are visible. And, if for some reason I need to remove it in the field or anytime during the build, I can.
My drawer boxes are all dovetailed, so yes they're glued.
You shouldn't "guess" on things you have absolutely no idea about. My kitchens are all high end furniture style with custom turned spindles, split and quarter turnings, furniture bases and custom mouldings. Gluing a FF to a box is absolutely no indicator of inferior work. It's just a messy unnecessary step.
If you want to knit pick each others work, why don't we post some pictures??
Ok, no reason to jump on him for what seems to me to be a logical answer. If your door profiles that you offer are only possible in 1" material, would you like to stock 4/4 and 5/4 of the same species in every species you work with? That seems like a logistical nightmare to me, employees are involved. Also I run my frame stock and door stock thru my molder from the same material so my yield is very good since I only use one thickness of material.
As far as gluing face frames to boxes that are pocket screwed all the way around, you can do it if you want but we don't and never has it been a problem. 15 years ago a cabinet fell off an open trailer doing 55 thru a canyon near me, slide on the road to a stop on its back after hitting the center guardrail. The guys brushed of the road grime, put it back on the trailer and installed it. No broken case or frame parts, and the frame wasn't glued to the box. Questions?
I was not meaning to knock anyone or their methods. Its just kind of an oddity in our field so I thought I would ask why. I've also never had an issue with having to get a door extra thick to accommodate a style.
Eddie....to get back to your original question. I've done the groove in the back of FF stiles years ago when I was trying to come up with best methods. I personally wouldn't do it as it's just another step and you lose the ease of installing drawer guides on a side flush with the inner ff. If you can hide all your pocket screws, they are much faster and frankly stronger that a grooved and nailed/stapled joint. If you use 1/2" sides, it becomes more appealing since you can't really screw them to the frame. If you're using 3/4" sides...I would continue to dado the box together and screw on the frames. You're really never going to know what you like though unless you just do it on a kitchen or two and see how it works.
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