framed inset cabinets. nested cnc shop...the door sits in the opening, euro hinge plate screwed to the 3/4" box. the frame imo gets zero abuse. it would seem this would be a natural thing to run yet i see no where in any searches the industry even talks about this.
currently my frame making (46 yrs) is mortise and tenon...if i can cut frames on the router , omg the productivity leap i envision.
no joints, perfectly square openings, time savings...i'm no spring chicken either but this cabinet business hates change. someone tell me they do this or considering the potential?
Well, my typical frame job takes literally four to seven days to build from ripping stiles and rails to complete frames. I used to make frames and I was much faster but busy running the shop these days.
One big road block is getting cabinet vision to see a face frame as one piece. Currently I run a frame only door to mimic a frame..
I've often wondered if you could cut the drawer fronts and doors [inset] with the face frame.Of course this would be paint grade. Could one use an 1/8 in. tool with .1 stepdown for the door and drawer cutouts. this would produce a perfect 1/8. in gap. Machine the profiles on door drawer parts first.
The two main challenges in doing this that I can see are going to be
1) Getting an acceptable finish on the frame inner edge. You may get better results if you switch to HDF. We've found HDF routed doors to be a bit easier to paint but the difference isn't a salvation experience either. But, worth suggesting.
2) Hinge screws splitting the MDF. If your hinge screws are going into the edge grain of the MDF, that's not ideal by any stretch. Especially if using the large #10 pan head type single-screw hinges.
Either way, a pilot hole will help but I fear that any time a client opens a door and leans on it will stress that spot on the MDF and potentially start a small split.
We use Medex which machines and finishes nice. We use both Cabinet Vision and V-Carve pro. You can approach this two ways,
1. Send elevation to drawing in Cabinet Vision, then export dxf and load this in V-
Carve pro and tool path. First is the pocket for the recessed shaker panel, second cut the door outline with 1/8" compression bit and finally cut the outside outline of the face frame and 1/8" tool. This could be done with a larger tool but you may start to distort narrow stiles or rails if you are too aggressive with the cut.
2. Totally in Cabinet vision use your tool set for a shaker panel mdf door and create another door that is actually your face frame, this door would have no panel just stiles and rails. This process is in testing on my end. The plus would be just one software and it all happens in the nest
When installing do you screw through the box in to each other? I seems like it would be risky to screw though the frames due to splitting.
I am following this with interest, may have to try it out. Beaded frames would be really nice to do this way.
MDF is not a lumber replacement. It is a sheet good that has outgrown its purpose and been moved into the cabinet shops for doors. And now face frames?
Just because you can does not mean you should.
MDF edges have no integrity other than that lent to them by a finish. And that is not much. MDF cabinets will not age well - long a maxim of wood cabinet makers, knowing their work will look better over time and age very well. As the MDF edges get hit and bumped, they will flake and fuzz and deteriorate. Then there is no easy touch-up for owners or cabinetmaker.
Working wood should be an enjoyable endeavor, whether a 1 man shop or 100 workers. Wood is a marvelous material, while MDF is the opposite. At some point in the future, I feel this will be recognized, and those that embrace an MDF faced box now will find the market has moved on, perhaps without them.
If you are cutting Sugar Pine, or Maple or Cherry or any other hardwood, does not a visitor point out how nice the shop smells? The next thing they do is reach out and touch the wood.
With MDF, one must be defensive, wear defensive measures of several sorts, it stinks and covers the entire shop with a brown, slippery, devilish dust that is dreadful to clean.
If you think you must use MDF to compete, you have chosen the wrong field in which to compete. Money is not everything, but enjoying life and working with fine materials is.
Respect the craft.
Respect the materials.
very thoughtful post and i agree on many of your points; although i stand by my point this industry at the same time is notorious in its refusal to look forward.
I remember like it was yesterday when I switched my shop from table saws and boring/dado machines to nested based manufacturing. The push back I got from peers , employees, and family in the business was enormous (nearly 20 yrs ago) but of course those same people who told me the cnc was going to be a paperweight sitting in the back corner of the shop ended up showing our customers our incredible tech and how it changed the shop for the better. Thankfully I persisted.
Now Iím older and more pragmatic but I see a change in customers and more and more acceptance to MDF (yes we use Medex). My customers care most about finish quality and seem to me more superficial than ever. (southern New England region) every new construction I go to is MDF wall to wall and people are even in the high end are seeing it as acceptable or a first choice product). So, despite the negatives I do feel the positives are possibly more ; hence my slow look in to this idea.
To another of your points David; I have also concluded customers are incredibly price conscious even in one of the wealthiest counties in the USA. So mdf frames are not simply to earn more or be more competitive; its to possibly give the customers a better product for some of the points made in previous posts. (reminder: I do not drill in to the frame; hardware is on the ĺĒ plywood interior)
Do I like the dust in the shop even with my great dust collection? Of course not! But I want to offer the best for my customers and also maximize shareholder returns. So I will continue to work through this concept.
David We'd all like to work with nothing but the finest materials, but depending on what part of the country you are in you have to do what you have to do to be competitive. we put mdf in the mix where it is non structural, and if moisture is a question we switch to moisture resistant material. yes it does not hold a screw in its edge, but what he is showing here is inset cabinetry, which if using euro hinges, all you have to do is switch from a face frame plate to a euro pate and mount it to your division. Also in regards to paint grade cabinetry, how would a ding repair be any different than that of solid wood. patch and repaint... All that said Im personally gonna stick with wood frames.
edges do ding easier i find on mdf doors. i think most of the damages occur in the manufacture to installation part of the process and not once in the customer hands.
so in our history we did a good share of mdf doors in frameless vanities back in the late 80's to mid 90's then we just stopped for no particular reason other than to keep my 5 piece door dept busier.
so back to those 30 yr old mdf doors; i get one time a month at least, customers bringing in broken hinges with mdf doors attached or blum meta drawers with the zinc plating broken and no one is complaining about the door! sure they look like hell (i would argue 30 yr old painted maple doors look worse than mdf ) but what lasts 30 yrs anyway?
i'm gonna keep testing and tossing in some end frames made of mdf on the next job and will post pics. my goals continue to be : make production faster (via less time to create frames and less finishing time) and an end product that looks new longer (eliminate hairline cracks).
We each need to do what we need to do to get by. But choosing lesser materials starts a process that ends with children working in a 3rd world factory owned by Ikea.
Or, think of it this way: You and your competitor have similar shops, and compete on many jobs. You use the same vendors, and draw from the same labor market. your pricing is the same.
The difference is that you borrowed money to get some equipment, and your competitor already has all that equipment and owns it, along with all his other equipment. Debt-free. Not equal.
When he figures his costs, he will be lower than you every time, by definition, since he does not a machine payment to make. Many shops have large debt burdens that will force, due to competition, them to chase the cheaper whatsit forever. It is easy to see that if your overhead is 15% higher than your competitors, then you will have a hard time competing.
As a Nation, we are all pretty dumb when it comes to debt service, banks prefer it. The effects of debt on competing entities is rarely discussed.
What does one do?
Find your niche. Exploit an area and become the expert. Do all you can within your niche and ignore everyone else. Define your niche well enough, and your competition vanishes. You can then borrow when necessary to improve or just replace equipment. That loan will not put you into a descending spiral.
Think of the poor guy that borrows from the shark, can't pay on time so the amount increases, etc. In no time the poor schlub is robbing banks trying to pay off the screw.
For us, it is MDF, or plastic, or outsourcing, or minimal whatever. Not as a choice, but as survival.
pocket screws (change from mortise and tenon) started out as the main plan but since studying the implications of even partial MDF (Medex) frames I put that on hold. chances are really high i do move to Castle but also work on doing partial jobs in the MDF until i can fully decide.
Leland, I think that's a great Idea. Now if there was a way to get a beaded face frame ? the fact the shape of the door could easily be curved or round top, etc.
Would be nice if you could figure how to do this in S2M. I will have to try your method. and you using V12 yet ?
I did my training in the early 90ís. Boss was a combo old school/new school. We would build everything in House thatís in a real mansion. We did m/t beaded face frames.
The first year on my own I switched to pocket screws & uv finished clear maple plywood. The quality was much better and way faster. It was truly a better product.
The only people that know there are m/t in a face frame is yourself and the people you tell about it. Unless you are building real furniture, it would be hard to convince someone there is a benefit that justifies the cost in a cabinet.
Iím one of those experimental guys who tries different things in all aspects of the business. The ideas and methods Iíve learned on the ww have greatly influenced my approach.
Give the mdf a try and update us as you learn the pros & cons. Good Luck
Hi Paul we are still using V11 everyday I am experimenting with V12 especially the connection manager which is a real game changer. I posted some beaded face frames that we did for a customer that requested MDF frames for a very $$$ mansion in Boston. Please excuse the primer color
Yeah the customer/builder specified it they wanted it seamless which it is. We used clamex and tenso fasteners which work great and you can remove them if you are working on a cabinet with doors and pre-finished maple interior
Iíve used mdf on several jobs for face frames with no problems and or complaints. Ok so I do miss the hairline cracks associated with using solid wood.
Money is never the problem if you have it.
I think I respect the craft enough to stay with it for 35 years and still try to be open minded enough to possibly advance it in ways that benefit it.
Iíve never been one to become one with the wood , I prefer my spiritual life to be just that so I keep that separate from my secular life.
For self respect , I choose to provide for my family in the most efficient means possible so that I can spend more time with them.
Iím obviously not a purist but that doesnít lessen the quality of my product.
After all most of us ride to the shop in our computer monitored pick ups , flip on the led lights then sit down on our pc s and tell everyone we should hand cut our dovetails!! Lol
please post back your results of the nested job, Iíd love to see the finished product.
FORUM GUIDELINES: Please review the guidelines below before posting at WOODWEB's Interactive Message Boards(return to top)
WOODWEB is a professional industrial woodworking site. Hobbyist and homeowner woodworking questions are inappropriate.
Messages should be kept reasonably short and on topic, relating to the focus of the forum. Responses should relate to the original question.
A valid email return address must be included with each message.
Advertising is inappropriate. The only exceptions are the Classified Ads Exchange, Machinery Exchange, Lumber Exchange, and Job Opportunities and Services Exchange. When posting listings in these areas, review the posting instructions carefully.
Subject lines may be edited for length and clarity.
"Cross posting" is not permitted. Choose the best forum for your question, and post your question at one forum only.
Messages requesting private responses will be removed - Forums are designed to provide information and assistance for all of our visitors. Private response requests are appropriate at WOODWEB's Exchanges and Job Opportunities and Services.
Messages that accuse businesses or individuals of alleged negative actions or behavior are inappropriate since WOODWEB is unable to verify or substantiate the claims.
Posts with the intent of soliciting answers to surveys are not appropriate. Contact WOODWEB for more information on initiating a survey.
Excessive forum participation by an individual upsets the balance of a healthy forum atmosphere. Individuals who excessively post responses containing marginal content will be considered repeat forum abusers.
Responses that initiate or support inappropriate and off-topic discussion of general politics detract from the professional woodworking focus of WOODWEB, and will be removed.
Participants are encouraged to use their real name when posting. Intentionally using another persons name is prohibited, and posts of this nature will be removed at WOODWEB's discretion.
Carefully review your message before clicking on the "Send Message" button - you will not be able to revise the message once it has been sent.
You will be notified of responses to the message(s) you posted via email. Be sure to enter your email address correctly.
WOODWEB's forums are a highly regarded resource for professional woodworkers. Messages and responses that are crafted in a professional and civil manner strengthen this resource. Messages that do not reflect a professional tone reduce the value of our forums.
Messages are inappropriate when their content: is deemed libelous in nature or is based on rumor, fails to meet basic standards of decorum, contains blatant advertising or inappropriate emphasis on self promotion (return to top).
Libel: Posts which defame an individual or organization, or employ a tone which can be viewed as malicious in nature. Words, pictures, or cartoons which expose a person or organization to public hatred, shame, disgrace, or ridicule, or induce an ill opinion of a person or organization, are libelous.
Improper Decorum: Posts which are profane, inciting, disrespectful or uncivil in tone, or maliciously worded. This also includes the venting of unsubstantiated opinions. Such messages do little to illuminate a given topic, and often have the opposite effect. Constructive criticism is acceptable (return to top).
Advertising: The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not an advertising venue. Companies participating in a Forum discussion should provide specific answers to posted questions. WOODWEB suggests that businesses include an appropriately crafted signature in order to identify their company. A well meaning post that seems to be on-topic but contains a product reference may do your business more harm than good in the Forum environment. Forum users may perceive your references to specific products as unsolicited advertising (spam) and consciously avoid your web site or services. A well-crafted signature is an appropriate way to advertise your services that will not offend potential customers. Signatures should be limited to 4-6 lines, and may contain information that identifies the type of business you're in, your URL and email address (return to top).
Repeated Forum Abuse:
Forum participants who repeatedly fail to follow WOODWEB's Forum Guidelines may encounter difficulty when attempting to post messages.
There are often situations when the original message asks for opinions: "What is the best widget for my type of shop?". To a certain extent, the person posting the message is responsible for including specific questions within the message. An open ended question (like the one above) invites responses that may read as sales pitches. WOODWEB suggests that companies responding to such a question provide detailed and substantive replies rather than responses that read as a one-sided product promotion. It has been WOODWEB's experience that substantive responses are held in higher regard by our readers (return to top).
The staff of WOODWEB assume no responsibility for the accuracy, content, or outcome of any posting transmitted at WOODWEB's Message Boards. Participants should undertake the use of machinery, materials and methods discussed at WOODWEB's Message Boards after considerate evaluation, and at their own risk. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages it deems inappropriate. (return to top)
Forum Posting Form Guidelines
The name you enter in this field will be the name that appears with your post or response (return to form).
Personal or business website links must point to the author's website. Inappropriate links will be removed without notice, and at WOODWEB's sole discretion. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
Your e-mail address will not be publicly viewable. Forum participants will be able to contact you using a contact link (included with your post) that is substituted for your actual address. You must include a valid email address in this field. (return to form)
Subject may be edited for length and clarity. Subject lines should provide an indication of the content of your post. (return to form)
Thread Related Link and Image Guidelines
Thread Related Links posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should point to locations that provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related Link that directs visitors to an area with inappropriate content will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
Thread Related File Uploads
Thread Related Files posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. Video Files: acceptable video formats are: .MOV .AVI .WMV .MPEG .MPG .FLV .MP4 (Image Upload Tips) If you encounter any difficulty when uploading video files, E-mail WOODWEB for assistance. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related File that contains inappropriate content will be removed, and uploaded files that are not directly related to the message thread will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links, files, or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
The editors, writers, and staff at WOODWEB try to promote safe practices.
What is safe for one woodworker under certain conditions may not be safe
for others in different circumstances. Readers should undertake the use
of materials and methods discussed at WOODWEB after considerate evaluation,
and at their own risk.