Safety Speed Cut Thermwood Corporation ECabinet Systems

Cabinetmaking

You are not logged in. [ Login ] Why log in
(NOTE: Login is not required to post)

Post a Response
The staff at WOODWEB assume no responsibility for the accuracy, content, or outcome of any posting transmitted at any WOODWEB Forum. Participants should undertake the use of machinery, materials and methods discussed after considerate evaluation, and at their own risk.
Your Name:
Your Website:
Email Address:
Subject: Re: Table saw incident

Message:

(read message guidelines).
Note: Do not use the below fields to advertise your business - only for links related to the discussion.
Thread Related Link URL:
Thread Related Link Title:
  To "point" to an image (picture) from another website, provide the URL (Web Address) of the file ( include ONE reference to http:// )
Thread Related Image URL:

Date of your Birth:

Upload a Thread Related File:
File Types: Image (gif-jpg-png-bmp), PDF, Sketchup, Video (mov avi wmv mpeg mpg mp4 ogg). (Image Upload Tips)

I have read the Site User Agreement and agree with the Terms

  <= Check to receive e-mail notification of responses

Message Thread:

Table saw incident

10/18/20       
Derrek

Website: http://Www.closetdr.com

Had a close call on Friday with the table saw. Be safe and don’t let this happen to you and if your not using a Saw Stop take a serious look at one!

Table Saw Incident why it happened & how to avoid having the same thing happen to you
https://youtu.be/tA5QdcXNHdk

https://youtu.be/tA5QdcXNHdk

10/19/20       #2: Table saw incident ...
Mark B Member

Push sticks are your friend. Lucky.

10/19/20       #3: Table saw incident ...
Kevin Dunphy

Website: http://www.kdunphy.com

Not to sound like a smart ass .I did some things never thought twice till I had an accident .
When I saw you video I cringed use push sticks like Mark said .
https://www.craftsy.com/post/push-sticks/

I use the second down from the top left corner made about 4 of them using Baltic birch I cut them on the CNC .They last a long time gone through lots of them

I'm also re sawing edging for cabinets half inch thick never had a problem .

Saw stop I think there the way to go on a job site only because those contractor saw are so rickety

10/19/20       #4: Table saw incident ...
Adam

You should have multiple push sticks sitting next to the saw at all times so people aren’t too lazy to make one. I typically make them from 3/4” ply. The ones that people don’t use are a 1/4” one or the wide 1 1/2” one that should have been used to push both pieces thru. The trick is to cut thru the push sticks.
There is no reason for your left hand to go anywhere near the blade. You can use push sticks & fingerboards to safely make 99% of cuts on a tables saw.

10/19/20       #5: Table saw incident ...
Scott

I agree with others, use push sticks, I use 1/2 inch Baltic birch ones cut out on a cnc as well, and more importantly make sure people are trained and have some common sense when using equipment. Never make an employee feel rushed when they are using a piece of equipment. This applies to everything, you can’t get sawstop with jointers, planers, shapers, or any other stationary or handheld power tool:

I wouldn’t ever buy a sawstop, I think they are way over priced and they just teach users bad habits. I will be the first to say that they do have their place, like mentioned maybe on a site with a bunch of people using it, definitely in a wood shop in a school where people are learning to use this equipment.

Safety is of the utmost importance, at the end of the day we all want to go home to our families in one piece.

10/19/20       #6: Table saw incident ...
rich c.

A lot of people come up with excuses not to buy a Sawstop, until they loose a digit or four. A shop owner not far from me lost most of all 4 fingers on one hand on a kickback. Said that he saw the fingers fly over his head, like in slow motion. There were no Sawstops in those days, but he would have paid anything to have those fingers back! Woodworking was never the same for him, and lost his shop a few years latter.

10/19/20       #7: Table saw incident ...
Derrek

I made this video because it’s a real world safety experience that anyone can learn from. Watch it, show it to your employees if you like to help them be aware of a real life incident not just a textbook video written by someone who has never used a saw.
As far as the Saw Stop goes I’ve seen all kinds of opinions and that’s fine. Saying it teaches people bad habits is a pretty far stretch though. I have never once said “I’ll ignore normal safety protocols because I have a sawstop”
While it might look like a small cut, it bled pretty good for about 30 minutes and the pain while not shock inducing like my leg I broke last year, I’d be fine if I didn’t have to feel it over the next couple weeks as it heals up.
You can buy new tools but you can’t buy new fingers!
If it was $100,000 vs a $2,000 saw the price concerns would be valid.
I just ordered 2 $1400 portable saws tops to replace my Dewald and makita on my 2 install vans. They get used maybe 10 times a year. Is it worth it? Absolutely! An emergency room visit will cost you close to that much, a worker’s compensation increase for a damage or lost finger would probably cost $100k or more.

10/19/20       #8: Table saw incident ...
Scott

Like I said, sawstops have their place and if you have a bunch of employees, it is a great idea.
I believe you when you say you will never ignore normal safety protocols because you have a sawstop. I bet you also don’t drink and drive, but lots do, and I have seen people who are reckless on a saw stop in the past.
I live in Canada so a trip to an emergency department is quite a bit difference in cost than the US, but I wouldn’t wish that on anyone.
I currently have 4 table saws of various configurations so only 2 of them could be replaced by sawstop’s, so I choose to do my best to respect them and work safely.
The trigger brake mechanism is a couple hundred dollars to replace, why is the rest of the saw so much? I will gladly use my 10 inch Canadian made General over that added cost.
Just my 2 cents worth. Everyone has their different opinions and reasons.

10/20/20       #9: Table saw incident ...
Warren Lake Member

Sorry but you caused your own kickback, Its an off cut leave it alone,

One push stick right hand side.

if you had to do tons you could jig it up fast.

Looks like too many teeth on your blade as well you are ripping a substantial amount even if only half way.

10/20/20       #10: Table saw incident ...
Jeff

I watched the video and I would agree with Warren, you are using the wrong blade, when ripping solid you use a ripping blade, secondly your saw is not up to code or has been modified as you don’t have a riving knife, as of 2009 table saws have to be equipped with a riving knife.
You never have to be concerned with the piece on the side of the blade opposite the fence, it will never kickback, usually just falls over or sits there, between the blade and fence can shoot out like an arrow, I saw a guy fire a piece out making a hole in an overhead door.

Anyways I am glad you are ok.

10/20/20       #11: Table saw incident ...
Warren Lake Member

jeff made a good point. Ive worked 40 years with nothing and thats is in my brain, just set up a much nicer saw and has a riving knife. Past owner made it ill make better ones. That wasnt on my mind cause ive ripped with no riving knife that way many times.

It almost feels like cheating to me or some type of crutch having that riving knife but its totally sensible. Further I think just about everyone sets them wrong. Why have that thing only do one function when i can also press your material to the fence. The difference is dramatic as it maintains constant pressure for you.

The old guy never used anything but if he did it was rip the wood past the heal of the blade, stop the saw, put in a finishing nail into the wooden insert then clip the head off and you had a tiny riving knife but even more so you had pressure against fence.

10/20/20       #12: Table saw incident ...
pat gilbert

On the subject of push sticks, don't let them get too thin as they can slip off the material and wedge between the fence and the material creating a nasty kick back.

Wood coming out of the saw can cause a lot of damage to your body.

A riving knife is imperative

Thanks for posting Derrek

10/20/20       #13: Table saw incident ...
MarkB Member

He states plainly in the video that he removed the stock riving knife/anti kickback, dust hood, because the part was too tall to fit beneath the hood/pawls. Its a modern saw, and has a riving knife. Im sure he is well aware of what he did wrong, its kind of admirable that he's willing to post what most of us would hope never see's the light of day.

Not defending the saw or his actions, I would never own a Sawstop for myself either but if I had a bunch of guys running saws, regardless of their espoused expertise and experience, I would most definitely have them on the shop floor.

I would venture to guess, if they havent already, insurance companies will painfully nudge you in that direction anyway.

Not long ago a picked up a machine purchased from a shop and in a conversation about spray booths with the shop forman (a young man) where OSHA came up he held up his right hand with freshly removed stitches of index, ring, and middle finger severed off at the hand. He was left with a thumb and a pinky. They had re-attached and they didnt take. Scenario was the typical late in the day, knocking out a few parts that they cut routinely, and poof. Im sure my face literally turned white seeing the hand not for the thought of losing my fingers but being the shop owner and having to live with that happening to someone.

We've all read the endless sawstop diatribes. With the average level of individual I have in the shop, there should be one out there but with a slider and being lucky that I am in the shop, and with CNC, I am able to do 95% of the cutting and anything they cut on the slider hands are feet away from the blade.

10/20/20       #14: Table saw incident ...
Jeff

Mark,
You must be an owner, and not a shop guy. What he removed was a splitter/anti kickback mechanism and a plastic guard that can also work as a dust and chip collector.
A riving knife looks like a shark fin you see in the movies, it is directly behind the blade and it is slightly lower than the blade so the operation he was doing is not a problem.


View higher quality, full size image (732 X 489)

10/20/20       #15: Table saw incident ...
Derrek

Website: http://closetdr.com

Thanks everyone for your thoughts and feedback. I just learned something I didn’t know before. It’s hard to post your mistakes and even harder sometimes to read the comments on them. Without posting I might not have ever noticed that saw come with 2 knives see video

https://youtu.be/B557H4ivuv0

10/20/20       #16: Table saw incident ...
Mark B Member

Jeff....
You can dick around over the riving knife foolishness all you want. Its the step ahead of mandated sawstoppedness. The riving knife would have done nothing to remedy the situation in this scebario. Finger pressure pointing directly at the spinning blade would have resulted in the same outcome riving knife or not. Blade tooth count or not. Rule number one is with force being applied where do my body parts go if the workpiece disappears. Riving knife installed the off fall would still have been kicked back and the force being applied would still have landed digits in the blade. We riving knife rip feeder and manually daily.

The riving knife battle is right along side the sawstop. Neither negates poor practice. Again in Derek's defense (i have always respected his contributions) we all make mistakes. Thankfully it was his own finger. A lucky lesson.

10/20/20       #17: Table saw incident ...
Jeff

Derrek,
Thanks for posting both videos, that is actually a sweet setup that the sawstop has.
I have never used a saw stop before, I may consider looking at one, however it may be to late in the game for me. I have cut for probably the last 10 years with mostly just a riving knife on a 10 inch saw and nothing else. I mostly only use that saw for cutting solid material. I leave the splitter and dust collection on my SCM saw.
Anyways have a wonderful day and hope your finger is not to tender for to long.

10/20/20       #18: Table saw incident ...
Adam

In retrospect the US has been behind Europe for something like 50 years(???)in tablesaw guards & riving knifes. It was life changing to go from a dangerous Delta/Powematic anti kickback to the decent Beisemeyer overarm and ok splitter. Then we skipped the Euro riving knife and went directly to the Sawstop.

People either get hurt or learn to use push sticks with no guards. Sawstops might lead to bad habits because you don’t fear the blade. Who knows? Buy a Sawstop if you can afford it. If not use your brain to do the best to not get hurt.

Be safe

10/20/20       #19: Table saw incident ...
Jason Yeager

Derek,

I appreciate your video, and the thoughtfulness it took to make it. I hope you heal up fast, and thank you. I had an accident and am fortunate to have fingers, so any chance I get to push safety in the shop is a great thing.

10/22/20       #20: Table saw incident ...
door shop guy

Always a good time to think about safety in the shop. Occasionally i find myself starting to do something not safe if i am in a hurry. I have to remind myself to slow down mistakes happen when you are in a hurry.

10/26/20       #21: Table saw incident ...
Oggie Member

Muscle memory also dangerous.

After three years on a regular table saw without a single incident I shaved some skin of a pinky and ring fingers on a scoring blade just within first few minutes on a new sliding table.
Once I finished setup and calibration and started cutting parts, my brain just automatically went into "routine mode" and loaded cutting program for an old table saw and my hands started moving in a familiar pattern over the wrong machine.
Fortunately, it was only a scoring blade protruding several sixteenths of an inch above table surface, otherwise it could have been much worst.

Stay safe and try to be mentally present in every moment while with the machines.

10/30/20       #22: Table saw incident ...
Gabe O Member

Derrick,
This is a learning experience all tablesaw users will experience at one time or another no matter how much experience. The problem with many woodworkers is the practice of convenience rather than safety. There are much safer and more effective tools for resawing or thinning(power planer, bandsaw) than circular saws or table saws. We all know wood is reactive and unpredictable. Feeding stock over a spinning blade with body parts a definite no-no. Everyone, even the most experienced should evaluate their practices. Safety first!

 

Buy & Sell Exchanges | Forums | Galleries | Site Map

FORUM GUIDELINES: Please review the guidelines below before posting at WOODWEB's Interactive Message Boards (return to top)

  • WOODWEB is a professional industrial woodworking site. Hobbyist and homeowner woodworking questions are inappropriate.
  • Messages should be kept reasonably short and on topic, relating to the focus of the forum. Responses should relate to the original question.
  • A valid email return address must be included with each message.
  • Advertising is inappropriate. The only exceptions are the Classified Ads Exchange, Machinery Exchange, Lumber Exchange, and Job Opportunities and Services Exchange. When posting listings in these areas, review the posting instructions carefully.
  • Subject lines may be edited for length and clarity.
  • "Cross posting" is not permitted. Choose the best forum for your question, and post your question at one forum only.
  • Messages requesting private responses will be removed - Forums are designed to provide information and assistance for all of our visitors. Private response requests are appropriate at WOODWEB's Exchanges and Job Opportunities and Services.
  • Messages that accuse businesses or individuals of alleged negative actions or behavior are inappropriate since WOODWEB is unable to verify or substantiate the claims.
  • Posts with the intent of soliciting answers to surveys are not appropriate. Contact WOODWEB for more information on initiating a survey.
  • Excessive forum participation by an individual upsets the balance of a healthy forum atmosphere. Individuals who excessively post responses containing marginal content will be considered repeat forum abusers.
  • Responses that initiate or support inappropriate and off-topic discussion of general politics detract from the professional woodworking focus of WOODWEB, and will be removed.
  • Participants are encouraged to use their real name when posting. Intentionally using another persons name is prohibited, and posts of this nature will be removed at WOODWEB's discretion.
  • Comments, questions, or criticisms regarding Forum policies should be directed to WOODWEB's Systems Administrator
    (return to top).

    Carefully review your message before clicking on the "Send Message" button - you will not be able to revise the message once it has been sent.

    You will be notified of responses to the message(s) you posted via email. Be sure to enter your email address correctly.

    WOODWEB's forums are a highly regarded resource for professional woodworkers. Messages and responses that are crafted in a professional and civil manner strengthen this resource. Messages that do not reflect a professional tone reduce the value of our forums.

    Messages are inappropriate when their content: is deemed libelous in nature or is based on rumor, fails to meet basic standards of decorum, contains blatant advertising or inappropriate emphasis on self promotion (return to top).

    Libel:   Posts which defame an individual or organization, or employ a tone which can be viewed as malicious in nature. Words, pictures, or cartoons which expose a person or organization to public hatred, shame, disgrace, or ridicule, or induce an ill opinion of a person or organization, are libelous.

    Improper Decorum:   Posts which are profane, inciting, disrespectful or uncivil in tone, or maliciously worded. This also includes the venting of unsubstantiated opinions. Such messages do little to illuminate a given topic, and often have the opposite effect. Constructive criticism is acceptable (return to top).

    Advertising:   The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not an advertising venue. Companies participating in a Forum discussion should provide specific answers to posted questions. WOODWEB suggests that businesses include an appropriately crafted signature in order to identify their company. A well meaning post that seems to be on-topic but contains a product reference may do your business more harm than good in the Forum environment. Forum users may perceive your references to specific products as unsolicited advertising (spam) and consciously avoid your web site or services. A well-crafted signature is an appropriate way to advertise your services that will not offend potential customers. Signatures should be limited to 4-6 lines, and may contain information that identifies the type of business you're in, your URL and email address (return to top).

    Repeated Forum Abuse: Forum participants who repeatedly fail to follow WOODWEB's Forum Guidelines may encounter difficulty when attempting to post messages.

    There are often situations when the original message asks for opinions: "What is the best widget for my type of shop?". To a certain extent, the person posting the message is responsible for including specific questions within the message. An open ended question (like the one above) invites responses that may read as sales pitches. WOODWEB suggests that companies responding to such a question provide detailed and substantive replies rather than responses that read as a one-sided product promotion. It has been WOODWEB's experience that substantive responses are held in higher regard by our readers (return to top).

    The staff of WOODWEB assume no responsibility for the accuracy, content, or outcome of any posting transmitted at WOODWEB's Message Boards. Participants should undertake the use of machinery, materials and methods discussed at WOODWEB's Message Boards after considerate evaluation, and at their own risk. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages it deems inappropriate. (return to top)


  • Forum Posting Help
    Your Name The name you enter in this field will be the name that appears with your post or response (return to form).
    Your Website Personal or business website links must point to the author's website. Inappropriate links will be removed without notice, and at WOODWEB's sole discretion. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    E-Mail Address Your e-mail address will not be publicly viewable. Forum participants will be able to contact you using a contact link (included with your post) that is substituted for your actual address. You must include a valid email address in this field. (return to form)
    Subject Subject may be edited for length and clarity. Subject lines should provide an indication of the content of your post. (return to form)
    Thread Related Link and Image Guidelines Thread Related Links posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should point to locations that provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related Link that directs visitors to an area with inappropriate content will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    Thread Related File Uploads Thread Related Files posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. Video Files: acceptable video formats are: .MOV .AVI .WMV .MPEG .MPG .MP4 (Image Upload Tips)   If you encounter any difficulty when uploading video files, E-mail WOODWEB for assistance. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related File that contains inappropriate content will be removed, and uploaded files that are not directly related to the message thread will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links, files, or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    Limtech Industries, Inc. Lamello
    Today's Sponsors
    • GreCon
      Spark Detection and Extinguishment Systems and Quality Assurance Measuring Equipment
    • Excel Dowel and Wood Products Inc.
      Plain and Pre-glued Dowel Pins, and Wood Parts - Servicing Small Hobby Shops to Large OEM's
    • CP Adhesives
      Supplying Quality Adhesives to the Woodworking Industry
    • Rose Machinery
      Horizontal Band Re-rips, Standard & Custom Designed Machinery
    • Cabinet Pro
      Design and Manufacturing Software for the Cabinet and Door Industries Since 1986
    • Cab Parts
      Pre-manufactured Components for Easy-to-Assemble Cabinet Boxes
    • Colonial Saw
      North American Supplier of Striebig Panel Saws, Lamello Specialty Tools and a Wide Range of Saw and Tool Grinding Machinery
    • Palmetto Cabinet Doors
      Supplier of Quality MDF Cabinet Doors
    • Cabinetshop Maestro
      Web-Based Project Management Software for Custom Cabinet Shops - Manage Jobs from Prospect to Punchlist Through Scheduling, Task Management, Time Tracking and Communication
    • Vacuum Pressing Systems, Inc.
      Vacuum Pressing Equipment - Including Bag and Frame Systems
    • Professional Machinery Group
      New and Used Machinery Serving the Needs of the Professional Woodworker
    • Felder USA
      High Quality Woodworking Machines and Tools
    • Anver Corporation
      Vacuum System Components - Suction Cups, Vacuum Pumps, Vacuum Lifters & Lifting Systems, and More

    Become a Sponsor today!