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Sliding table saw vs CNC5/26
![]() I'm mostly one (occasionally two) man shop looking to upgrade my cabinet parts cutting capabilities. The main goal I want to achieve at this moment is chip-free cutting on both sides of double side 3/4" melamine boards and the same for laminated/prefinished 3/4" plywood boards. The size of boards I use is 4'x8'.
So, till now I was somehow getting along with 12" cabinet saw. If the blade is sharp and I pay attention I mostly get chip free cuts on both sides, but that costs me time and energy (and some stress - I'm always afraid what I'll see when I flip the piece I just cut), and sometimes - more often recently - the quality of melamine boards is the deciding factor regarding the chipping; it looks that some of those have some hard particles inside, which - when encounter blade tooth - do not get cut but rather ejected through the bottom side of the board, leaving some "exit wounds" along the cut. I'm not sure that's what exactly happens but it sounds like that when cutting, and because I get like one feet of chip free cut, then the chip, and after it another feet of chip free cut. I currently go through 20-30 boards per week (I usually spend 2 days on cutting and edgebanding, the rest of the week is assembling and installation, plus some countertops), and it takes me 20 min on average to cut one board. In the meantime, I'll try to improve my cuts with saw blade dampeners/stabilizers, although I must say I don't expect much from that. So, I think I either need something with a scoring blade or CNC.
So, I assume CNC would be better choice (at least in the long run), but with CNC it's not my needs that dictate the choice of the machine, but rather my budget, and while I think I could get decent sliding table saw for around $15K, I need help figuring out what would be the price for some entry level CNC that could at least go through 60-80 boards per week for the next few years (at least 4) without falling apart or going through excessive servicing. Because, if I go now for CNC, I would probably not be able to replace it with better one in just 2 years. My CNC software needs would be very modest: I use some self made Excel sheets that calculate cabinet parts based on cabinets dimensions and materials used. So, basically, just something that would read the list of parts, and nest it for cutting. I'm sure many of you have been in the similar situation and I'm hoping you would share what you've done than and what do you think of that now. If you're for sliding table saw with scoring blade - which one you recommend and what options you consider useful? If you're for CNC - same questions... I would also strongly prefer new machines to the used ones. I know lot of it depends on what I'm expecting and trying to achieve, but let's just keep it simple by saying that I'm looking to double my current production within one year by outsourcing the installation of the cabinets (so that I can concentrate on just fabricating the cabinets), and double that once more within one more additional year by getting additional help in the shop along with one of these machines. I've also looked at some of the vertical panel saws (on Youtube videos), but it looks to me that there's to much of bending down involved in using those machines, especially when you cut smaller parts? Sorry for the long post, I've tried to paint my situation as accurately as possible.
O. 5/26
![]() If I could only have one saw in the shop, it would be a slider. With that said, I hate sliding tablesaws. Without a vacuum lift they are a pain in the rear to load and unload sheets, but they are super versatile. A $15k budget isn't going to get you much for a slider if you are set on going new. I think some of the Felder saws are in that range, but I'm not impressed with the one Felder piece that we have. An acquaintance has a top of the line Felder, and I've used it a tiny bit, and it does seem decent. I'd still rather have a Altendorf, or a Martin. I'd probably lean towards the Altendorf with no real reason. I'm not real biased on tool brands, but when it comes to panel saws, I wouldn't buy anything other than a Streibig. I bought mine in 2010 I think, and it was probably my best decisions up until getting the cnc. There isn't much bending over. Scoring isn't necessary for crosscuts as you can do a shallow climb cut as you're bringing the saw up, plunge to full depth, then complete the cut. You can do it on a rip, but it's sorta awkward. There is scoring options though. A vertical panel saw is kind of a one trick pony and pretty much useless for anything other than turning large rectangles into smaller rectangles. I think a Compact Plus like I've got is close to $30k nowadays. Colonial Saw is great to deal with the few times I've called for parts or questions as well. A really nice thing about a vertical panel saw is you can gang cut parts. Not always useful, but it's twice as fast, with no negatives, when you can do it. Things like drawer bottoms we cut manually since it's faster than the cnc because of this. We can cut up to six pieces of 1/4" material at a time. A CNC is a large investment, and it's not magic. It takes some effort and time to learn how to use one. We're six month in with ours, and I still screw up something small and stupid on the regular. But it's well worth it. I consider myself to be pretty darn good at cutout. Using a vertical panel saw, a 16" tablesaw for ripping, a Northfield for dados, and a 50 hole Gannomat line bore I would average about 45 minutes a sheet from rack to parts leaned up ready to go. That didn't include stretchers, nailers, or shelves. Which excluding the shelves were cut on the benches during assembly. The cnc cuts a sheet for me on average in about five minutes. That includes shelf holes, all the dado's/rabbets, and holes when needed for hinge mounting. I spend another 3-5 minutes clearing parts, blowing off the spoilboard, and pulling a new sheet on. I can do 40 sheets in a 8 hour day. 40 sheets used to take me about 30 hours manually running three saws and a linebore. (all of which were right close together) The cnc is the best money I've spent yet. It isn't very useful for us in processing hardwood though. If you're doing slab fronts from sheetstock you can mill all of your hinge holes on the cnc as well. I don't think anyone can tell you what to get for a router. I was looking at Anderson, Biesse, and Weeke. All based on the availability of technicians and parts. Shop Sabre is literally 15 minutes from my house and about 25 minutes from my shop, and I didn't go with them, though I know plenty of people that run them and are quite content. I wouldn't go with a cheap machine though. We're idiot woodworkers, not service techs. You don't want to be working on that stuff constantly. 5/26
![]() Thank you Karl for your detailed response. I'm not totally opposed to used machinery, I think I could go with used slider or vertical panel saw, but I'm not sure about used CNCs. My thinking is, people may be selling their good old school machinery when stepping up to CNC, but there're not many reasons to cell your CNC unless it's problematic, underpowered for the task or outdated? 99.9% of all my needs is just cutting melamine/plywood rectangulars into smaller rectangulars. For the remaining 0.01% my current cabinet saw is ok. So, maybe vertical panel saw would be ok after all.
I'll upload some cut sheets to illustrate what I usually do, so whoever wants can have a look at what I need to cut and get some idea.
About your CNC, could you please share which one did you get, what software are you using and some estimated costs of all that?
Thank you,
5/26
![]() from my experience considering the situation you are in at the moment I would strongly suggest a sliding table saw.
5/26
![]() I'd agree there's a lot of outdated automated equipment out there, a lot not worth looking at. I got lucky, I bought my router used at an auction. I think the owner had some medical issues and was retiring. Or he was just sick of it. The machine was less than two years old and had 242 hours on it, and I paid a bit less than half of new. The auction was in the middle of nowhere, and was run by a local auction service so it didn't have the reach like IRS or Machinerymax would have. I paid $53k for the router with tax, another $6k to move it, the tech to do the startup and give it his seal of approval was another $1600. I put a dedicated dust collector on it, that was another $5k. I probably spent $500 on tooling and some more tool holders right away. The numbers are fuzzy and there's something I'm forgetting. I figured I had a bit less than $70k into it all said and done. When I was looking at new, I was budgeting $150k, which was likely a little high, but I like to lie to myself so I feel good when it costs 130. I think the vertical panel saw is faster and easier to be accurate, even taking the loading of full sheets out of the equation. I don't have a slider in my shop, and I don't have a ton of time on a one either.
I have a Weeke Vantech 480. It's pretty much their baseline machine, its a 4x8 table. Melamine is hard on bits. Somebody else should weigh in because we don't do much melamine. I think I've read most people are getting 50-100 sheets on average out of a compression bit before chipping is problematic. With plywood, we probably ran 200 sheets before I started wondering if I should swap out the cutout bit. The bit we use for dados doesn't seem to wear as quickly. We're using Vortex, they're semi close and if I order something, it shows up the next day. A cnc spindle doesn't compare to a hand held router. RPM is likely too high with a handheld, the feed rate is erratic, your arms aren't as stiff and stable as a gantry. You are probably using a straight bit versus a bit with some shearing action. My cabinets are machining intensive. Even more so since I got the cnc. Partitions are dado'd into decks. As are stretchers (front and rear) on drawers, and the nailer rabbeted into ends, and notched on partitions on base cabinets. On wall cabinets the bottom deck runs to the wall, so a rabbet has to be plowed out to accept the cabinet back. Now with the cnc, my nailers are dado'd to index the partitions, as are my stretchers. That way the benches don't really need to measure much, (other than to double check the idiot in the office doing drawings, me) The stretchers that go through partitions are also dado'd and the partition is notched to accept them. I didn't dado nailers or stretchers doing it manually before, but it's fricking awesome. We even setup a joint for running partitions through decks, like when you have an opening above another, in a sort of half lap that is all notched and dado'd together. We don't bother with nails and glue on those. It'd not going anywhere once the frame and back are on, it literally can't move. If you're doing euro, it's super simple to set everything up with blind dado's. We're using Mozaik for the bulk of the cabinet parts. It creates the programs for the cnc, and cutlists for doors, and drawers. We don't use a cut list for face frames.
The full CNC version costs $125 a month. Additional seats are another $25 a month. Another software company, on this planet... will rape you for each additional seat and charge you more per year than the annual Mozaik subscription just to maintain your status as current. And they'll charge you for the post processor. And want $25,000+ up front. I don't care for their way of doing things. A cnc is a lot of money though. And it won't go real well at first. For me, it's been a godsend. We're small, and I was the only one doing cut out. It's freed up hundreds of hours a year for me personally, it has greatly simplified some odd ball tasks, and it has expanded what we are capable of. I can't say it's right or wrong for you, but it has been very right for me. I'm not selling my Streibig anytime soon either, it's too handy. I might have them tuck that thing in the coffin with me. When I went out on my own it was the one tool I desperately wanted and it took me seven years to get one. A slider is a much less expensive option. Who knows what direction this little nightmare house of cards we call the economy is going to go. I have a Cantek dovetailer. It's not a great machine, but I think Cantek builds a product that is an excellent value. It does the job well, it's just not very refined. 5/27
![]() I’m a CNC guy. Never had a slider but I did have 2 different beam saws. I converted my pod and rail to flat table 8 years ago. Thought I’d keep the bean saw, after the first week I had the beam saw saw and haven’t looked back. I now have a biesse rovers with autoload/unload. You don’t need that much. Those sheets you have above are a piece of cake. Drilled for line boring, hinge and dados for assembly then cut to size with no chipping, ready for banding and assembly you could easily run 25 sheets in a day with one guy. You would use a 1/2” compression bit. We get 35-70 sheets out of a new bit, we sharpen twice then dispose of them. We use cabinet vision and it’s expensive to get set up, I hear good things about Mozaic. I sold my old rover B for 20k and it still had a lot of good life in it. I wanted to keep it but didn’t have the space. 5/27
![]() For what your doing - cutting melamine, get a slider. For your 15k budget you could get a nice used Altendorf. Better a 10 or 15 year old good used German saw than a new Asian one that you don't know if you can get parts for in 10 years from now.
5/27
![]() I have two sliders and half a dozen deltas and Sawstops, all have a reason and get used daily yet all of our casework is done on a CNC, MY first was a single head (Spindle) and I had to learn every work around to make cabinets with 250.00 programs like Cabinetpartspro and vectric, All of that was under 15k to start. now we have a 508 Automatic tool changer and are a larger shop as a result, two pieces of equipment solved far more problems than any others over the years,, 1) an edgebander 2) a CNC. 5/27
![]() If I had it to do over again. I'd start with a cnc and an edge bander. You can pay for everything else with those two tools 5/27
![]() Eventually you're going to want to get a reliable CNC. If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't rush into that kind of purchase at this point. Your success with a CNC is going to be dependent on how prepared you are before you purchase one. The quality of the CNC is extremely important but so is properly integrating into your production. I say all that as someone that is currently setting up a showroom with the CNC as the center piece. I have a new slider under 15K that I was planning on listing in the classifieds next weekend. Feel free to contact me. 5/27
![]() I'd get a vertical panel saw with scoring. Got to be a lot of them out there collecting dust. 5/27
![]() I do most of my cutting on an older Striebig. I like it. Built like a tank and cuts very quickly and quite accurate.
5/28
![]() Thank you guys for all your inputs, they're invaluable. I agree that CNC is most likely best thing for one/two man shop, or for small shops in general, if one can afford it, which is probably not my current situation. That's why I was talking about some "temporary" solution for like 2 years, expecting that by than I may be able to afford one without stressing myself to much, both financially and in all other ways that go with that.
After all your opinions I'm thinking about outsourcing cutting and edgebanding operations and see if that will work, in order to skip buying slider just as some short-time temporary fix, and try to save for CNC. I'll give it some more thought in next few days and see what will come out of it. Thank you all! 5/28
![]() Well, that being said, I would appreciate your opinion on what kind of CNC you would consider as acceptable solution for one-two man shop.
Thank you 5/28
![]() For the immediate time, the learning curve for a sliding bed saw is nothing compared to a CNC. You can immediately increase your productivity with a sliding bed saw, probably cut your time on the saw in half. I have an Altendorf that I bought 30 years ago and I have never regretted it. We have had to make repairs, parts are not free, but they are available. Having said that, the most important tool in my shop is my CNC, without a doubt. I have an AXYZ with a 144" x 80" table. That is a large table. I bought the AXYZ in 2000, so it is 19 years old. I have had to replace parts and the learning curve was really difficult. At the age of 50, I went to school to learn AutoCAD. I had a real fear of the CNC technology. Best decision I ever made in my shop. You mentioned counter tops. My solid surface seams are perfect. Usually I can glue them up on my table, Cutting sink cut-outs is so simple. I can go to the sink manufacturers web site and usually they will provide a DXF file for the sink we are using. I can download it, place it on my drawing. If it is a laminate top, we cut at a speed of 350 IPM so, to cut a normal double bowel kitchen sink will take about 20 seconds. If it is a solid surface top, we cut solid surface at a speed of 60 IPM and that might take three minutes to cut. A CNC will open up so many opportunities, some days, you will just look at it working and smile to yourself. Before I bought my AXYZ, I visited some manufacturers of CNC. While at one of the manufacturers, I told the Representative showing me around that I did not know AutoCAD and that I only had one person working for me that knew AutoCAD and this person didn't have any real cabinet experience. He said to me that it is a consensus opinion that it is easier to teach a Cabinetmaker AutoCAD than it is to teach someone who knew AutoCAD cabinetmaking. Once you get a CNC, you will learn to do a lot more than just cutting cabinet parts, but that is a good start. If I were in your position, I would probably buy the slider, but I would definitely make plans for a CNC. 5/28
![]() Since you asked, I have a CAMaster 508 ATC. it was not my first machine and I like you had no money to spend on such an animal in one day, The most important thing you can do is due diligence your homework on this will be what makes this successful. NO salesman can do that for you, remember he makes car payments with your money just like you do. if you want call me on Saturday My number is on contact page of my website. I will be glad to tell you of the 6 months i spent before seeing machines and then buying one. I got to the right people and my first 15k machine paid it self off in two months, I have always been proud of that as in the mid 2000.s guys like me were not to have CNC machines, little and mid size affordability was a thing of the future, That has all changes now and there are 3-5 mid size you can trust and a whole lot of larger expensive machines. I did not have "on phone or visiting tech" money. I had to learn it for myself, be able to work on it myself I moderate a machine forum for guys like us feel free to check it out.
http://camheads.org
We cut on a slider for 15 years and then got a CNC and never looked back. We are using Mozaik and once setup correctly all of your shelf holes are drilled, blind dados, holes for hinges and drawer runner, and all parts are cut perfect and square. When we were looking we knew it would speed up cutout time but its the rest other stuff you don't realize that really saves you. With blind dados your boxes go together twice as fast. Having holes for runners and hinges allows you to put these in while the parts are flat on your table. If I had 15k in cash to spend I would keep it in the business for cash flow and finance a CNC. Spending about 60K on a Camaster or something like that the payments would be way less than what you can pay your part time help. If you spend the time learning the software you can probably double your production without hiring anyone to help. Make sure you get a good vacuum pump, have good dust collection, and clean compressed air. If I were starting a new shop today I would buy a CNC and an edgebander and maybe a saw stop.
Also this will allow you to get rid of your line bore.
As an alternative to buying Iron, you could but some software (cheaper kind without the CNC link)
The most important thing in the cabinet business is sales. Focus on sales.
Cabinet parts are easily purchased. Or even stock cabinets or the heresy of Chinese cabinets
This way you will develop a more remunerative skill without the risk/expense of buying iron.
As to the other IMO a router is the easy choice
If you get a slider, there are plenty of good used ones and get a tiger rip fence. It will pay for itself very quickly. We have two sliders, both with the tiger fence. We also have a forklift to feed sheets so one man can work safely. Change your cut list planning to rip and crosscut. It will use more material, but at 22.00/sheet for white melamine, it does not pay to keep turning that sheet. Harold
Unless you can book cut or stack cut sheets a cnc is faster because all the holes are drilled without further processing needed.
So many good advises, so many different experiences :)
Thank you all for your valuable inputs, it's always interesting to have a peak into someone's else shop :)
Anyway, from your posts (and pictures) I've tried to deduce the answer to my main question: the price tag for entry-level cnc capable of cutting cabinet parts for one-man shop. It looks like it may be somewhere in the range $30-60K if I'm not mistaken, but that's still big span.
James E McGrew:
1. From your photo, it looks like you have some DIY vacum pump system on your cnc. On a quote I got from some cnc manufacturers those were like $10K, can one save some money by improvising?
2. You said you started with a CNC under $15K... That is very interesting, since it looks like nobody today consider machines with that price tag to be suitable for cabinetry (unless maybe used). Could you please say few more words about your experience with that one? Do you think if there's any decent machine today under $30K that could cut cabinet parts in a production environment?
My 25 HP FPZ vacuum is on the other side of the CMU wall...
I started with a single spindle used CAMaster, if i knew then what I know now I would have waited for an ATC, that said I ordered machine # 2, 8 weeks later, that said "Buy your second machine first"
An ATC is a must, the cool thing is that you or an employee can run the machine while doing another task like edgebanding
Axyz also makes a good machine at a value price i.e. around 20k or so for a used one
Be careful if you go this route as older machines inevitably require considerable repair. This is way too much to contend with considering everything else you have to learn with CNC
The thing that sold me on my first machine was the question "what would you rather have a CNC router or a minimum wage worker"
IOW don't consider the total cost of the machine but consider the monthly payment. This is counterintuitive to conventional wisdom but it is useful to think this way regarding a lease.
My advice is to decide on some software (that can later be connected to a router) and learn it 1st.
This gives you the option of buying parts out and honing your skills at selling and designing jobs in 3d
Couple of things regarding costs.
Along with everything that has been said a slider was a great investment for a cabinet shop 15-20 years ago when they first started getting popular. At that time stock cabinets were crap and people were more willing to pay for custom. Now there are very nice stock cabinets going in million dollar plus homes. To be able to compete with large cabinet companies us smaller guys have to be as efficient as possible and a cnc is the way too do this.
When buying a cnc a tool changer and a good vacuum pump are a must!!! Do not skip out on these areas. A 4x8 10hp vacuum will do anything bigger I would get 2. A drill bank is also nice option to have. When we priced out camaster I think you could get a 5x10 with 2 pumps and a drill bank for around $60,000. That will process way more than you want and will give you plenty of room to grow. Do not buy the machine you think you need now, buy the one you think you might need in 5 years. You can get to that point a lot faster than you think.
I agree with all of you that CNC is the best way to go. I also agree with all of you who think that slider would also help a lot. What seems to remain the dilemma is whether buying the slider would be useful or rather unnecessary step towards CNC. But that just seems like a real dilemma.
What lays beneath is something different.
And if I get to deep into credits and loans, the loose around my neck may get too tight, and any minor disturbance may be able to cause a lot of problems.
That's why I bought almost everything I have for cash, once I had it saved for that, and not before.
Well, that being said, it would be far from truth to say how I do it now is more "safe". I've had a back pain around new year that lasted few weeks, I've head 6 weeks of tormenting pain in March and April that started in my groin area and than spread as pain and stiffness all over my right leg with no obvious reason (I suspect the cause for it was the way I was twisting myself to push the 3/4" 4'x8' particle boards against tablesaw fence while making countertops). But I had to work all that time despite the pain and my productivity reduced to almost stupidly low levels.
So, jumping into debt is risky, continuing with how I currently do is also risky (maybe even more than the alternative, but I may just be used to that risk and not see clearly how big it is), what am I to do is something no one else but me can answer, but I really appreciate all your insights regarding the shop and business and finance related details of the cnc and other machines.
I've got few quotes from few cnc manufacturers. They converge towards $60K for plug and play, and their financing partners seem more than happy to help with financing. It also looks like that number may be close to the price which most of you that have cnc experience suggest as necessary to enter that arena without later regrets.
I really hopped (don't know really why) it would be somewhere in $30-$40K range, but...
When I started this thread I was thinking of buying something for the cash I saved (whatever I might bought for that amount) and stay clear of debt, but now I'm glancing at the "dark side" too.
I'll let the idea acclimatize in my head for a few days.
In the meantime, if anyone want's to add any more details and opinions about their setup like the model they have, the size of vacuum pump, cnc software, cabinet software.... is more than welcomed.
Thank you all and stay safe,
I would say find a decent slider for 5-8K. I paid 3k for ours and it cuts dead square, the cost of getting that in and running is minimal. Even one with a manual fence will be a vast improvement from a regular tablesaw.
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