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How do you size cabinet doors?

3/6/21       
Kalvin Member

We have always oversized our doors 1/16 in both height and width, so that they can be squared up after assembly.

This method involves 2 passes on the jointer, and edge sanding the end grain. It's incredibly time consuming.

What have you found to be the quickest way to tackle this time waste?

3/6/21       #2: How do you size cabinet doors? ...
Mark B Member

Overlay doors we just make to size + allowance for the edge sander. Inset are oversized and squared up on the slider then sanded.

3/6/21       #3: How do you size cabinet doors? ...
Kalvin Member

Mark, are you just oversizing on the height, or also width?

For inset, we oversize and scribe to face frame opening once the frame is on the cabinet.

3/6/21       #4: How do you size cabinet doors? ...
Mark B Member

Yes, oversized height and width. No scribing to the box on inset. They are just squared and sanded to the dimension needed. Are your frames out of square to the point you have to scribe?

We follow a routine very similar to Karl's. He posted this a long while back.

We dont do a ton of inset.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25GbUnlOHh4

3/6/21       #5: How do you size cabinet doors? ...
Kalvin Member

They aren't severely out of square, but on the rare occasion we do flush inset, the customer expects perfect reveals.

3/6/21       #6: How do you size cabinet doors? ...
Frank Member

this is a real sensitive topic, lol.
doors have for yrs been listed via Cabinet Vision, built 1/8" over on width and length

for years we had a top guy fit every door (inset jobs) ..it was literally a full time job.
one day I thought to myself how does Conestoga, etc make frames and doors? certainly they did not do it like we were.

so I asked my guy (i did all the layout among other things at this time) why must you fit every door? the answer was "the frames are never that square"

well that set me off (Dad was still fully in command and i had to tip toe on any changes)

to make a long story short i went to frame making and worked out to get the frames to be square (as they should be!)

then i had the door maker trim the doors to size per the door list.

i was told no chance this would work and i would fail miserably. of course i knew it was us who was woefully behind the curve.

anyway, it worked and the door fitter went on to become a pretty good installer. essentially adding a top employee for free.

it also meant jobs would get out the door faster as they were not held up for days in a fitting scheme. it was such a game changer i cringe thinking about 20 yrs later.

we now trim doors on a shaper vs the slider for a far better edge that requires minimal sanding.
make your frames square!

3/6/21       #7: How do you size cabinet doors? ...
Mark B Member

What Frank said. In this day and age if your needing to scribe you need to upgrade your equipment/process. Home crapo is shipping flush inset from dog-doo mass producers all around the country that are installed without question and likley showcased on HGTV, Pinterest and god knows whatever other he&& hole outlet we are suppose to exceed expectations of for hte same price. Youve got compaines like Timberla(ke and a billion others flying out production cabs without a single scribed door and shipping to every home center out there under a bunch of different names and 15 others behind them.

Scribing every door is a manufacturing flaw in your frames.

3/6/21       #8: How do you size cabinet doors? ...
keith farr

So what kind of changes/techniques did you implement to achieve better frame squareness?

3/6/21       #9: How do you size cabinet doors? ...
Kalvin Member

I would also like to know what changes you implemented to achieve square face frames.

Just to clarify though, I'm looking for general techniques you guys are using to size up your normal overlay doors. Not talking about inset, just in general.

3/6/21       #10: How do you size cabinet doors? ...
Dustin orth

When I was still building cabinets, we built doors a total of 1/4" oversize in each direction. Then trimmed 1/8" on each edge on a vertical panel saw for bigger than 10x10. Used a sled on a tablesaw for the small ones, always cut cross grain first, then rip with the grain. That minimizes sanding with no blowout as long as blades are sharp and saws are true.

3/6/21       #11: How do you size cabinet doors? ...
Adam

The 95% of our cabinet work is inset face frame. 90% of that is beaded inset. Almost no euro hinges. It’s all built in furniture including the kitchens. Tons of french doors. Long gangs of cabinets.

I would defy someone to not sand their doors to fit in those frames. That said the frames are always parallel because they are typically racked a wee bit. So you are effectively fitting the tops and bottoms. All this is done with 150 grit on the edge sander. They’ve got to be edge sanded regardless if they are fitted or not.

Square edge fb are are way faster. Tighter tolerances. We use a Shinwa machinest framing square on the frames.

3/7/21       #12: How do you size cabinet doors? ...
Frank Member

we mortise and tenon for frames, glue , then square off , leaving the clamps on essentially overnight. we just put more care in the squaring process.

all i know is once the doors are hung inset, the jobs look great. the whole process that we did cost 6 figures a yr in wasted labor by fitting each door. we were allowing horrible frames then correcting the door.

the latest change was to the door trim process. one day i was bored and decided to sand some doors. the face and backs were great (due to the 2 headed widebelt sander) but the edges had saw marks that were ridiculous. our guys were sanding these edges to a point the door size most likely changed and the squareness was blown to bits with excess sanding. i switched to the shaper. push back was intense as usual ..that's when i know i'm on to something. i do not think my guys are out to undermine the processes ; they just are oblivious to the implications of better systems.

now, sanding doors is a damn joy as the edges are so clean its crazy. quality is improved and doors get sanded in less than 1/2 the time. it still boggles my mind to how backwards and wasteful we have been through the years in so many processes.

3/8/21       #13: How do you size cabinet doors? ...
Warren Member

on inset I do about final width or bit more and over 1/8" plus over each end. that was how the old guy did it on cabinet stuff

For your fitting on the big level they built jigs for the face frames and every face frame was the same.

The had a jig to sand drawer fronts and doors that stopped itself when a certain amount was removed, everyone was the same size. I didnt ask about sandpaper wear as they went but if the jig stopped it then stuff was repeatable the same.

I didnt ask about door gap size and its one of many things I wish I asked.

Up above is how it was done from a guy running a shop with 425 people. 85 were licensed cabinetmakers.

I fit the inset stuff with the edge sander 150 grit a bit fine but it leaves a nice finish and less chance of taking too much off fast. It takes some time just part of the process.

3/8/21       #14: How do you size cabinet doors? ...
Karl E Brogger  Member

Website: http://www.sogncabinets.com

I build my doors .040" oversized.
Stile and rail material is ran .020" big on width.
Rails are cut to correct length.
Stiles are cut .040" long.

Overlay, doors are just edge sanded to size. With bigger margins between doors, I don't check for square, I just grind them to size.

Inset, one corner is fitted air tight on the edge sander. The other two edges are then marked with a scriber and sanded to size. The jointer is used only when needed. I've got a little 6" jointer just off the end of the edge sander just for this. My pairs almost always need a bit taken off on the jointer.

I hate full overlay. I just don't have a great system. I've debated about squaring and sizing on the router on full overlay. Left and right tooling dogging a climb cut, then just DA the edges. Sounds slow and painful.

I think I'm buying 100 grit edge sander belts.

3/8/21       #15: How do you size cabinet doors? ...
Kalvin Member

Karl, I build a lot of tall doors. I only have a small edge sander, so upper/tall stiles get a pass on the jointer to bring them down to the right width. Ends get hit on the edge sander. I got tired of my guys burning up belts so I found some 60 grit belts that seem to last a little longer for sizing.

The reason I'm asking how other people do it is because I'm thinking it's time to buy the biggest edge sander I can find. I was just hopeful that someone had found a process that was quicker / didn't involve the edge sander.

3/8/21       #16: How do you size cabinet doors? ...
Warren Member

good point on door length didnt come to mind till you said so. Nice if you can get an oscillating belt machine.

How thick you make your taller door? ive opened some high end tall stuff and the door bends from the magnetic latch holding at the top. I thought that wont take long to develop memory in fact it was in a show and started already. I know im high on the grit, im not doing the volume you guys are more. If I need to change up grits the belts are there. One thing ticks me I have old edge sander belts that are new and they fall apart, I have 307" stroke sander belts some likely 30 years old and been in the attic tortured and non of them ever come apart like the edge sander belts mosttly 3M stuff from different times

3/9/21       #17: How do you size cabinet doors? ...
Frank Member

we went from a big edge sander to a shaper with a 1" height straight edge. the finish that comes out of that is so clean you just sand with an orbital very very quickly. no man handling on the edge sander. its easier, imo safer and better quality. jmo.

3/9/21       #18: How do you size cabinet doors? ...
Kalvin Member

Frank, what are you doing to prevent tear out on the end grain?

3/9/21       #19: How do you size cabinet doors? ...
Karl E Brogger  Member

Website: http://www.sogncabinets.com

I always look at those power fed kundig edge sanders with interest. I just don't think it would fit how I do things.

I've got an Oakley H5. I think the platen is 52(ish) inches long? Big long doors take some technique, but the average door it's plenty.

3/10/21       #20: How do you size cabinet doors? ...
Jared Sankovich Member

I oversize by 1/16", scribe similar to Karl with one corner stuck tight, cut with a track saw and make a clean up pass on the jointer or shaper (usually jointer).

End grain cuts on the stiles are run across about 1" then the door is flipped and cut through to prevent blowing it out.

Maybe its me but even .010" out of square looks bad with a .060" or so door gap.

3/10/21       #21: How do you size cabinet doors? ...
Warren Member

there is a feel for sure on the doors being so much longer than the belt platen surface. While ive never tried it what i posted above about the old guy making the face frames on a jig so all the same and doors on a jig for the edge sander that stopped it, you could not sand a door undersize if you wanted to as the jig bottoming out was the bottom line of material removal. I never asked for a drawing but should have, knowing at least they did something to make it repeatable in big leagues was of value to me.

Id think if you took the jig way they did it and your longer door laid on that you could have a stop just the same and less feel needed. Sure it would take a bit of thought but would work. He did big volume on one of his shops, 1000 dressers at the time type stuff so they have to have consistent repeatable accurate stuff and likely stuff where you could hand it to a guy and had a fail safe so he could not mess up.

Jared your door gaps are too small, same as me, I have different wood shims and they speed it up fast and easy, I have to consider the season as well as my shop is not controlled well for temp and humidity. Even a bit out shows like crazy, more so when the gaps are tighter. Add in that the hardware hinges and slides are not repeatable bang on accurate.

I see inset in magazines all the time, gaps you could pass a sandwich through and often door not centered, white with a black shadow line shows it more and takes away instantly as my eye sees that. I like beaded inset the best and its a helper over just inset with the rounded edge. Still want the gaps accurate.

3/10/21       #22: How do you size cabinet doors? ...
Frank

Kalvin,

that's a good question. we push the ends with a solid hardwood slab with a wood handle in the center. the solid piece being tight to the door prevents tear out's. its very old school obviously.

we have a lot of automation here but still retain a lot of old ways.

3/10/21       #23: How do you size cabinet doors? ...
Kalvin Member

Frank, I just read about a technique another guy uses in the comments above yours. They joint the first inch or so, then flip it around and run it. I just tried this on a long drawer front (too long for the platen on my edge sander), and it worked! Amazing! This is why I love woodweb.

3/16/21       #24: How do you size cabinet doors? ...
Brent Member

95% full overlay euro cabs here. I size my fronts 1/8" bigger on height and width, and I efficiently make sure they are as square as possible on glue-up. Thickness sander. Trim to final dimensions on table saw - make sure to trim the cross-grain first to eliminate tearout. Kiss the edge with 120gr edgesander. Couple passes on the edges with the 150gr orbital and break the edges at the same time. Done.


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