Message Thread:
Any KCD cnc commander users
4/4/16
I own a small cabinet shop and am close to a purchase of our first cnc, deciding on a machine has been hard enough, the software even worse. I currently use kcd and am very happy with it 98% of the time, we export out to a tiger stop for frames, but cut the panels on a panel saw now. I would love to stay with kcd and upgrade to their screen to machine, but I worry that it may often leave me with secondary work after the parts come off the cnc. The occasional weird piece I'm ok with, but not things that are common to our methods. I talked by phone with one of their reps for an hour, and that talk did nothing to reduce that fear. Unfortunately often i find you end up talking to a computer guy but not necessarily a cabinet maker. We gang our frames and we extend our dividers to the floor on base cabinets, which means of course one cab could have 4 or 5 floors and the dividers will have a dado on both sides. When asked about that, the response left some doubt. There could be other pitfalls, that was just the one I asked about. (no discussion about construction methods please) Does anyone use kcd cnc version on a regular basis and would you be willing to have a phone conversation. Talking to a cabinet maker instead of a programer may be more beneficial Thank you
4/5/16 #2: Any KCD cnc commander users ...
Your fears are correct, but its easy and cheap to fix. We use KCD to export the dxf files, import those into Vcarve pro, add or delete any machining features, then cut parts. Its fast and simple and allows us to modify parts as needed.
Get the package that exports the dxf files....not the full blown package with screen to machine CAM.
Then get a separate CAM package such as vectric vcarve. I believe the KCD CAM package is a dumbed down version of Enroute. Anyways, lots of different CAM programs to choose from based on needs and budget....almost all are likely less expensive that the KCD commander.
4/5/16 #4: Any KCD cnc commander users ...
Thanks for the info, part of my problem is I really know little in regards to cam, and machine operation. The challenge is to weed out the sales pitch. After exporting to vcarve do you need to make the modifications every time or once you do it for a particular type of cab it's done. In my mind I see myself creating the kitchen with my standards and basically sending it to the machine, if that means through a secondary program then fine. I just can see myself forgetting common details if I need to make those mods for each and every panel. Each and every time. It's such a heavy investment in time and money choosing wrong could be a mistake i live with for years. I will check out vcarve though. Thank you
4/6/16 #5: Any KCD cnc commander users ...
Hi Henry,
I've been through this the long and hard way over the last 2.5 years. As I've posted in a couple of places here, the software is even more important than the machine, much like a brain is to hands. Your software is your biggest asset and also your biggest limitation. Even if it is theoretically possible to doctor dxf parts, and I believe you must have the ability to do so when necessary, the room for oversight, human error, the learning curve of how to do this and that, the difficulty of handing the reigns to an employee, and the sheer time involved in the process are all major cons. IMHO, even a small scale shop should think big in terms of software, because if you invest (money and learning curve) in the right package, you can grow along with it ad infinitum. if you are invested in a cumbersome and limiting system, you have to start over when you need to grow. The other thing is, again IMHO, the software itself is the key to growth because the more automated and versatile it makes you, the more you progress.
My personal road has been an extremely painstaking one, see my posts on other forums. After giving up on various packages, I said enough's enough, I'm going straight to the top and getting Cabinet Vision. It has more users than anything else I know of. Well, after investing hundreds of learning hours and almost 1 year using CV to make kitchens, I conclude that all that investment is limited to the product description: Cabinets. I don't want to have to become a UCS programmer just to do simple things that are not standard to the software. So CV was a big investment with limited potential overall.
Recently, I have been using Wood Cad Cam. Here the learning investment is significantly greater, like buying a plane to go get a pizza, but the payoff is well worth it. I have yet to find a true limitation of this software. You engineer exactly as you want, in infinite variations and combinations, at the user level and with no programming, using simple math that most everyone can understand. And although I am currently using it primarily for cabinets, the concepts are equally useful for any custom creation, and parametric to boot. It is only a matter of time before I branch out to things beyond casework, on the exact same software platform.
I am not a software salesman, I own a carpentry shop. But if you ask me, I suggest you get in touch with Stiles for a real in-depth demo of what WCC can do for you, and decide for yourself. Again, it is not a simplistic solution, it is very deep and far reaching. But if you are the type that will take it seriously, the payoff is tremendous. My opinion.
Best of luck.
Benjamin.
4/6/16 #6: Any KCD cnc commander users ...
Its actually very simple. You deal with the parameters in KCD to get the dxf files correct and accurate to your liking and the way you build your cabinets. This is fairly tedious, but it must be done. Once you have KCD spitting out dxf files acuurately, you draw a job, export the cabinets or panels you want to cut.
Now switch to Vcarve, batch import the dxf files, review to make sure you have everything, make any changes you want, nest sheets, apply toolpaths.
You set up a set of "toolpath templates" so you only need to do this once and it makes running the cam software very quick.
Download vcarve and play with the trial, and check out a few of the tutorials. There are more useful gadgets, and ones you will need, once you buy the full version.
4/6/16 #7: Any KCD cnc commander users ...
Henry,
From the description you give on how you build cabinets KCD will not do what you want. You partitions are going to reqire flip operations which it wont do. I build ganged inset cabinets. You can draw 3 cabinets and gang them togther using a common stile very quickly and easily. But that is only a picture. I just ganged 3 cabinets in KCD. I have 2 end panels and NO partitions. Take a good look at Mozaik.
4/7/16 #8: Any KCD cnc commander users ...
I don't know anything about KCD but I have looked at Vcarve in the past for our Morbidelli 3615 and it couldn't handle automatic tool changes or the drill block. Worth checking if that is still the case depending on what machine you have.
4/7/16 #9: Any KCD cnc commander users ...
I also looked up Vcarve Pro because of its popularity but the drill block limitation disqualified it. I have an SCM Pratix. It turns out that the G code for a drill operation is just XBO and the coordinates, then Xilog handles the drill block optimisation. So I really don't understand why Vectric said they can't make that code, but I was greener back then and I didn't know that, so I proceeded to Enroute. They wrote me a custom post processor and when I subsequently discovered glitches in it (such as when doing a new operation) they fixed it for me graciously. So although I said I am using Wood Cad Cam that is only for the CAD part. I am also getting DXFs out of it (No limitations whatsoever, you are in the driver's seat.) Then I toolpath them using Enroute's ATP function and the machine is humming. In the USA you should actually not need Enroute: Stiles has own their system set up to output to any machine. Outside the USA it's somewhat complex to output from WCC to a nesting CNC unless it's a Weeke. That's why I am using Enroute.
4/7/16 #10: Any KCD cnc commander users ...
Thanks for all the input. Part of my problem is actually me. The limit of my automation experience is a tiger stop. all the choices and methods out there to basically take large rectangles and turn them into small rectangles with a few holes and grooves, is some what overwhelming. Maybe I'm delusional but I have a difficulty understanding why the process is so complicated. None off us are designing turbines. Hopefully soon I can sit down and actually see the process, probably will sooth my fears
4/7/16 #11: Any KCD cnc commander users ...
Henry,
Go to the IWF this summer in Atlanta. Ask the companies that you are considering to design a project you are doing using your construction methods. Then decide.
4/8/16 #12: Any KCD cnc commander users ...
Henry,
I might suggest before IWF, you check out a shop using automated software first and get a look at the process. Construction details aren't that important since you need to get a grasp of how all of this works. Building cabinets is easy, we all have done it for years, but getting all the variables correct so that the data can be output is the tricky part. Depending on the complexity of your products, it will take some time for your methods, materials, machine, and hardware to be entered into your database. There is a very large learning curve with getting it set up, but once you are able to stick with it, your output require you to look for a bigger building, more employees, and equipment. Good luck.
4/26/16 #13: Any KCD cnc commander users ...
If you're looking for a decent inexpensive CAM program, check out SheetCAM.
I run a Biesse Arrow with a 12 position tool changer and a drill block.
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