CNC

You are not logged in. [ Login ] Why log in
(NOTE: Login is not required to post)

Post a Response
The staff at WOODWEB assume no responsibility for the accuracy, content, or outcome of any posting transmitted at any WOODWEB Forum. Participants should undertake the use of machinery, materials and methods discussed after considerate evaluation, and at their own risk.
Your Name:
Your Website:
Email Address:
Subject: Re: CAD / CAM Question

Message:

(read message guidelines).
Note: Do not use the below fields to advertise your business - only for links related to the discussion.
Thread Related Link URL:
Thread Related Link Title:
  To "point" to an image (picture) from another website, provide the URL (Web Address) of the file ( include ONE reference to http:// )
Thread Related Image URL:

Date of your Birth:

Upload a Thread Related File:
File Types: Image (gif-jpg-png-bmp), PDF, Sketchup, Video (mov avi wmv mpeg mpg mp4 ogg). (Image Upload Tips)

I have read the Site User Agreement and agree with the Terms

  <= Check to receive e-mail notification of responses

Message Thread:

CAD / CAM Question

3/22/18       
Tom

Hello all. I put this in the CAD forum first but no one has looked at it. Looking for some experienced input on a software / machine upgrade. We build commercial cabs and some display work with melamine and laminate panels. Soon to have a late model Holz-Her flat table coming with ATC, 10 spindle drill head and "C" axis. Currently design with Kcdw for standard stuff and Acad for specials. Tool path manually with V-Carve Pro for our current machine (spindle, NO tool changer, NO drill head), slow process. Kcdw has a program for creating code which is easy but limited to their output only. Looking at Enroute, AlphaCam, MasterCam, RouterCAD, Cim-Tech... Prices are all over the place ($5k - $20k) and priority is function first but also "user-friendly" enough for others in the shop to learn/use. Shared pluses and pitfalls relating to our application is appreciated. Thanks.

3/22/18       #2: CAD / CAM Question ...
Mike

Tom,
From my perspective and my own opinion I found Alphacam pretty intuitive and easy to learn. The drill optimization works extremely well, Routing and pocketing is on par with everyone else. Rotary axis manipulation, including your C axis with all kinds of aggregates is easily applied with a little direction. Solid and surface machining is not real well documented, but you can get what you want with a little experimentation. The CAD file types available for input is pretty large and gets better all the time. I have been using Alphacam for 15-16 years and have never felt the need for anything else for a 4 axis machine.

3/23/18       #3: CAD / CAM Question ...
Chevy

Website: http://keysoftwareservice.com

I second Alphacam,,,,,I ve ,,been an installer for a few years now,,after an install is pot on to test and calibrate all functions,,,

Xyz calibration
Boring
Sawing
And a few onboard banders ,,,
Hats off AC,,,

Post processors are easy to write ,,(I use Visual Basic to write my posts ,non object oriented)

3/24/18       #4: CAD / CAM Question ...
Ian

We picked up a promaster 7225 last year and we use alphacam, but I believe ( have never had the need to use it as we don't do cabinetry stuff) the machine comes with Campus cabinet control. Alphacam is very capable, but why spend the $$ if you already have all you will need to use? Don't quote me on the capabilities, but speak with your Holzher rep about it.

3/24/18       #5: CAD / CAM Question ...
Richard

Hello Tom,

Enroute is pretty simple to use and configure an ATP to automatically nest and toolpath files from KCD and AutoCAD. It does support drill banks. They have post processors for most machines. Not sure if they support C-axis, might depend what type it is. I believe they do rotary axis but not sure if they support other types.

I think both AlphaCam and MasterCam offer more powerful features including C-Axis & 5 Axis. I haven't really used either. At a quick glance they look more complex but that's usually the way with software that has more features. A necessary evil I suppose! What kind of work are I doing with the C-axis?

Good luck

Richard

3/24/18       #6: CAD / CAM Question ...
Ian

Tom, check out this video, I believe standard inclusive software package has everythingyou will need for cabinetry. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7OFfKfn5vs

3/24/18       #7: CAD / CAM Question ...
Tom

Hi Guys, thanks for the responses so far. I am trying to figure out what makes Alphacam 3x the cost of Enroute. So, I guess there's a reason it seems to be the preference.

Ian, the machine will come with Campus and yes, it looks like it can be used as an independent tool. But, in that we're doing various commercial jobs (50 - 200 cabinets), I really want to be able to design in Kcd and then have a software that will ATP it all rather than part by part. I have so much $ and time in Kcd already. Holz-Her told me I needed another package to take the layered .dxf files and generate the code.

Richard, my impression from talking to Mastercam is it's more for metal working, but not sure. And, I don't yet know what I'm going to do with the "C" axis other than eventually, maybe horizontal boring (when my Point to Point stops working). I do have a couple of other options for "H" boring just in case. We might want to put in a grooving saw or other profiling option. Low priority for now and (the included) Campus software can program the "C."

At this point, I am assuming Alpha/Master is more capable than EnRoute or RouterCAD. They are also 2 or 3 times the price. I don't want to spend to too much nor too little. This machine and ancillary support requirements are setting me back quite a bit of $$$.

So, budget is a factor, but one of the biggest issues is can a "non-CAD" shop employee learn it? If I can hand off the standard stuff and only have to handle the "specials" (80/20 rule?), I can devote more energy to selling. We're at the point that if we don't grow, we will wither away.

Thanks again!

3/24/18       #8: CAD / CAM Question ...
Chevy

Website: http://keysoftwareservice.com

Enroute stuff is great if you are a beginner post processors for every machine available on the market today are included,,,the sales guy is awsome Luke,,

Alphacam is crazy powerful,,,but little more of a learning curve,,

if you cut wood please do not get mastercam,,,

3/24/18       #9: CAD / CAM Question ...
Richard

Hi Tom,

Enroute does support horizontal boring & I believe they can support grooving saws.

Regarding your question of a Non-CAD person running Enroute, this should not be an issue. If you are mostly cutting cabinets then they will simply be importing a list from KCD. Nesting, Toolpaths , labelling & G-code creation will all be automated. For the specials from AutoCAD you can layer the DXF and use a similar process or can import the DXF and apply preset toolpaths manually.

Alpha CAM does have more features the only question is if you need them?

3/25/18       #10: CAD / CAM Question ...
Ian

Alphacam is pretty easy to use as far as cabinetry goes, and Holzher offers a 3 day training course when you buy their machine. I remember seeing that there was a plugin for ovvo fittings in Alphacam also. The nesting software is great , very capable.

3/25/18       #11: CAD / CAM Question ...
Tom

I appreciate the wealth of collective experience from the group. I think Richard captured my feeling right now;

"Alpha CAM does have more features the only question is if you need them?"

Let me add that we are currently a very small shop (2-3 guys) and I am almost 60, therefore hoping to be stepping away in 10 years or so. Budget and time are big concerns so a simple (but effective) system is the goal. I admit that the Enroute (or RouterCAD) price points are more attractive than "Alpha" as is what sounds like an easier learning curve. But if it has a significant caveat, I need to uncover it before I "spend too little."

Also, I didn't mention it before, but I do already own ArtCAM Insignia, albeit older (version 4). I bought it to work with Kcd about 12 years ago, but it could never successfully post to my current machine. They said if I ever got a "real" machine with a tool changer and multi-spindle head, it would work. However, I've all but given up because I can't seem to find a post that will talk to a newer HolzHer. The old posts are't going to work. AutoDesk (which bought Delcam/ArtCAM) is discontinuing it and did not have a newer post (.hops versus .tap or .con). Does anybody have a suggestion to find an updated post???

Beyond that, I will be watching Youtube vids for Enroute and AlphaCAM today in the hope of gaining more familiarity.

As always, thank you in advance!

3/25/18       #12: CAD / CAM Question ...
Ian

Better to have more capability than you immediately need, than not enough in the near future. The only thing I dislike about Alphacam is the drawing features , but that can be imported for Autocad. The toolpathing is great . Also pairs up with Aspire very well, which is relatively cheap.

3/26/18       #13: CAD / CAM Question ...
Chevy

Website: http://keysoftwareservice.com

Aspire cost 8k
Artcam pro 2018 cost 10k
Alphacam ultimate with post 20k
Mastercam all modules 18k with 3 axis post
Enroute pro 6.5k
Bsolid 20k
Poly board pp 1k
Rhino/rhinocam 14k
Solidworks with hsm pro 30k
Hsm ultimate —posts Are free

These are the packages I have physically seen and helped customers integrate into their machines,,,

Chev

3/26/18       #14: CAD / CAM Question ...
Chevy

Website: http://keysoftwareservice.com

I guess it comes down to what logo the customer likes best,,, : )

3/26/18       #15: CAD / CAM Question ...
Chevy

Website: http://keysoftwareservice.com

Sample Hops Code Capmus

;MAKROTYP=0
;BILD=ALPHACAM.WMF
;INFO=Milling
;WZGV=AlphaCAM
;MASCHINE= HOLZHER
;NCNAME=1
;KOMMENTAR=
;DX=0
;DY=0
;DZ=0
;DIALOGDLL=Dialoge.dll
;DIALOGPROC=StandartFromAnzeigen
;AUTOSCRIPTSTART=1
;BUTTONBILD=
;DIMENSION_UNIT=0
VARS

DX := 751.5532;*VAR*Dimension X

DY := 870.6612;*VAR*Dimension Y

DZ := 18;*VAR*Dimension Z
START
FINISHEDPART (DX,DY,DZ,0,0,0,0,0,'',0,0,0)
CALL HH_Park (VAL PARK:=3,X:=0,Y:=0)
TOOLM (3,_VE,_V,_VA,_SD,_ANF,'3')
SP (0,0,-5,0,0,_ANF,0,0,0,0,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0)
G01 (751.553,0,-5,0,0,1)
G01 (751.553,870.661,-5,0,0,1)
G01 (0,870.661,-5,0,0,1)
G01 (0,0,-5,0,0,1)
EP (0,_ANF,0)

3/26/18       #16: CAD / CAM Question ...
Chevy

Website: http://keysoftwareservice.com

if any programmers vba,,,please check my math,,,

4/4/18       #17: CAD / CAM Question ...
Will Williamson  Member

Website: http://www.willmade.com

Chevy You have never seen any Aspire software that cost 8 grand, you should check your math. $1995.00 total cost And you only need Aspire if you plan on cutting 3D. For the most part you can get by with V Carve Pro for 7 or 8 hundred dollars best software for the money any where.

4/5/18       #18: CAD / CAM Question ...
Chevy

Website: http://keysoftwareservice.com

vectric aspire (also know as aplacam art) when purcashed from Vero as alphacam at is 8999.00

i do see today on the website the company advertises 1999.00 price tag,

Learn the facts,,,-

4/5/18       #19: CAD / CAM Question ...
Chevy

Website: http://keysoftwareservice.com

beautiful work,,,,big mouth,,but very nice work,,

_bless

4/6/18       #20: CAD / CAM Question ...
Pdub Member

I'm also interested to know anyone's opinion on Alphacam vs Aspire. Alphacam essential came with my machine and I've gotten somewhat proficient with it. I've used Ultimate and done very basic 3D on it, but it was complicated.
Now it's getting to be time for me to pony up and get my own 3D capable software and I'm wondering if I spend a lot of $$ upgrading Alphacam or change horses and try Aspire (and save some $$).
I use CV for cabinet stuff, which is 90% of what we do. I only use Alphacam about 1x per month for the oddball stuff, but want to get into more 3D projects.

4/6/18       #21: CAD / CAM Question ...
Chevy

Website: http://keysoftwareservice.com

some basic questions
what type of machine do you have,,,and what type of work do you do,,,

if you standard cutout of parts (standard 3axis x,y,z ) you may not need any of those programs,,,,just a cad program to make dxf's,,,,

if you have a question about a specific function ,,post your questions,,and ill make a video and post it here for you,,

just my opinions,,,

4/7/18       #22: CAD / CAM Question ...
Chevy

Website: http://keysoftwareservice.com

please pardon,,almost forgot,,,Enroute,,,,awsome product,,,awsome support,,,the rep is straight up,,,,on your software search,,,please reach to Luke at Enroute and take a look at enroute,,,,awesome awesome product.

4/9/18       #23: CAD / CAM Question ...
Mike

Pdub,
I have Alphacam Ultimate. I do a lot of 3d work in Autodesk products. I also have the Aspire module. I find it difficult to create 3d drawings in Aspire. Mostly it is the learning curve since it requires different skills than creating in AutoCAD or Alphacam. My time is pretty limited so I don't have time to wade through hours of online videos, which is pretty much the scope of Aspire training. If there was a class that could teach me the basics in a few days, I would have done that years ago. I have created some cool things in Aspire, but I am sure that I could not drive any of my aggregates with that software alone. Not even sure that Aspire can do multi drill operations. Could be wrong, but those two softwares don't seem to address the same needs.

4/9/18       #24: CAD / CAM Question ...
Chevy

Website: http://keysoftwareservice.com

Alphacam is the most powerful of all, and the ultimate package is probably the best overall best cam solution i have ever used, everything, that Mike has said is 100% accurate,

Cad- typically where you draw or design
Cam- typically where you import your cad and apply tools to the geometry paths.

-Chev

 

Buy & Sell Exchanges | Forums | Galleries | Site Map

FORUM GUIDELINES: Please review the guidelines below before posting at WOODWEB's Interactive Message Boards (return to top)

  • WOODWEB is a professional industrial woodworking site. Hobbyist and homeowner woodworking questions are inappropriate.
  • Messages should be kept reasonably short and on topic, relating to the focus of the forum. Responses should relate to the original question.
  • A valid email return address must be included with each message.
  • Advertising is inappropriate. The only exceptions are the Classified Ads Exchange, Machinery Exchange, Lumber Exchange, and Job Opportunities and Services Exchange. When posting listings in these areas, review the posting instructions carefully.
  • Subject lines may be edited for length and clarity.
  • "Cross posting" is not permitted. Choose the best forum for your question, and post your question at one forum only.
  • Messages requesting private responses will be removed - Forums are designed to provide information and assistance for all of our visitors. Private response requests are appropriate at WOODWEB's Exchanges and Job Opportunities and Services.
  • Messages that accuse businesses or individuals of alleged negative actions or behavior are inappropriate since WOODWEB is unable to verify or substantiate the claims.
  • Posts with the intent of soliciting answers to surveys are not appropriate. Contact WOODWEB for more information on initiating a survey.
  • Excessive forum participation by an individual upsets the balance of a healthy forum atmosphere. Individuals who excessively post responses containing marginal content will be considered repeat forum abusers.
  • Responses that initiate or support inappropriate and off-topic discussion of general politics detract from the professional woodworking focus of WOODWEB, and will be removed.
  • Participants are encouraged to use their real name when posting. Intentionally using another persons name is prohibited, and posts of this nature will be removed at WOODWEB's discretion.
  • Comments, questions, or criticisms regarding Forum policies should be directed to WOODWEB's Systems Administrator
    (return to top).

    Carefully review your message before clicking on the "Send Message" button - you will not be able to revise the message once it has been sent.

    You will be notified of responses to the message(s) you posted via email. Be sure to enter your email address correctly.

    WOODWEB's forums are a highly regarded resource for professional woodworkers. Messages and responses that are crafted in a professional and civil manner strengthen this resource. Messages that do not reflect a professional tone reduce the value of our forums.

    Messages are inappropriate when their content: is deemed libelous in nature or is based on rumor, fails to meet basic standards of decorum, contains blatant advertising or inappropriate emphasis on self promotion (return to top).

    Libel:   Posts which defame an individual or organization, or employ a tone which can be viewed as malicious in nature. Words, pictures, or cartoons which expose a person or organization to public hatred, shame, disgrace, or ridicule, or induce an ill opinion of a person or organization, are libelous.

    Improper Decorum:   Posts which are profane, inciting, disrespectful or uncivil in tone, or maliciously worded. This also includes the venting of unsubstantiated opinions. Such messages do little to illuminate a given topic, and often have the opposite effect. Constructive criticism is acceptable (return to top).

    Advertising:   The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not an advertising venue. Companies participating in a Forum discussion should provide specific answers to posted questions. WOODWEB suggests that businesses include an appropriately crafted signature in order to identify their company. A well meaning post that seems to be on-topic but contains a product reference may do your business more harm than good in the Forum environment. Forum users may perceive your references to specific products as unsolicited advertising (spam) and consciously avoid your web site or services. A well-crafted signature is an appropriate way to advertise your services that will not offend potential customers. Signatures should be limited to 4-6 lines, and may contain information that identifies the type of business you're in, your URL and email address (return to top).

    Repeated Forum Abuse: Forum participants who repeatedly fail to follow WOODWEB's Forum Guidelines may encounter difficulty when attempting to post messages.

    There are often situations when the original message asks for opinions: "What is the best widget for my type of shop?". To a certain extent, the person posting the message is responsible for including specific questions within the message. An open ended question (like the one above) invites responses that may read as sales pitches. WOODWEB suggests that companies responding to such a question provide detailed and substantive replies rather than responses that read as a one-sided product promotion. It has been WOODWEB's experience that substantive responses are held in higher regard by our readers (return to top).

    The staff of WOODWEB assume no responsibility for the accuracy, content, or outcome of any posting transmitted at WOODWEB's Message Boards. Participants should undertake the use of machinery, materials and methods discussed at WOODWEB's Message Boards after considerate evaluation, and at their own risk. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages it deems inappropriate. (return to top)


  • Forum Posting Help
    Your Name The name you enter in this field will be the name that appears with your post or response (return to form).
    Your Website Personal or business website links must point to the author's website. Inappropriate links will be removed without notice, and at WOODWEB's sole discretion. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    E-Mail Address Your e-mail address will not be publicly viewable. Forum participants will be able to contact you using a contact link (included with your post) that is substituted for your actual address. You must include a valid email address in this field. (return to form)
    Subject Subject may be edited for length and clarity. Subject lines should provide an indication of the content of your post. (return to form)
    Thread Related Link and Image Guidelines Thread Related Links posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should point to locations that provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related Link that directs visitors to an area with inappropriate content will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    Thread Related File Uploads Thread Related Files posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. Video Files: acceptable video formats are: .MOV .AVI .WMV .MPEG .MPG .MP4 (Image Upload Tips)   If you encounter any difficulty when uploading video files, E-mail WOODWEB for assistance. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related File that contains inappropriate content will be removed, and uploaded files that are not directly related to the message thread will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links, files, or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    Suction Cups, Vacuum Lifters, Vacuum Pumps from Anver Corporation ecabinet systems.com Thermwood Limtech Industries, Inc.