Your first mistake was using minwax, the stuff is pure junk. Your second mistake was trying to do a second coat, it doesn't adhere.
What "oil based varnish" are you using and how are you applying it? If you are brushing polyurethane, the finish will lift. You really need to use a better quality stain (we use dyes almost exclusively) and learn to spray your finish.
I appreciate your effort to help. You've seen my website. All of f that furniture, 20 years worth, has Minwax stains. I am complimented all the time. I'm not a rookie.
The finish cannot have lifted as it was just applied. I, and a couple hundred years of woodworkers have used brush finishes when spraying is not an option. There are more ways to skin a cat than the one you like. So thanks for trying, but I need more thoughtful advice this time.
Well, I've only been at this for about 40 years and I'm still learning.
This is a customer approval sample, one coat of spray no wipe dye and 3 coats of conversion varnish on longleaf pine. Dye can be top coated in 15 minutes, cv is blanket ready the next day. You will never get that depth or clarity of color with stain, especially minwax. If brushing is a necessity, the dye will never lift like stain will.
I don't think there is anything wrong with Minwax stain per se. It is what it is - common oil stain.
If you let it dry for two days that should have been fine.
If the finish lifted there might have been something going on with your reclaimed wood.
Is it by chance yellow pine?
I have used some in the past that was so resinous that I can't imagine any finish sticking to it.
Almost like tring to finish oily Teak without something like shellac to try to seal it first.
Being a finishing snob is not going to help you figure out what is going on here.
It's been very humid in MN. That's why I went with a 2 day dry. It's 100 year old weathered pine, I have made many tables from this wood. It's soft, still pretty porous wood, but gives the rustic look my clients like.
The stain looked fairly/regular even before varnish. I'm fairly certain this is not a lifted finish...the coloring happened in the first 10 minutes of application. Not immediately, but slowly began over course of 15-30 min dry. I'm varnishing outside, in the shade.
My suspicion......is that I applied TOO MUCH stain in the corse of staining in the first place. Again, very soft pine. The legs are white pine from tablelegs.com and have some of the same affect happening. I'd did use a heavy brush coat, twice to deepen color. I suspect there is "some reaction" happening.
I wouldn't call it a lifted finish but a lifted stain. If the Minwax wasn't stirred up real good the colorant may have sunk to the bottom of the can and you may have just been staining with oil.
Just guessing...so I apologize for what may seem like " gotcha questions " but they are not intended to be.
Mostly use dyes but on the occasion when I did/do use an oil stain I would always place my thumb on the surface for a few moments and when I removed it if I saw any oil bleed on the surface, I didn't consider it cured enough to continue with a coating.
Hope you figure out a solution...keep us up to date.
Reclaimed pine, especially longleaf, is exactly why we transitioned over to dyes. Even as resinous as longleaf is, dyes will give a far more consistent coloration without the muddiness stains will cause.
There are much better wiping stains available than minwax. We use Valspar, Sherwood, and Mohawk. Given the caliber of Tim's work, it deserves a better finish than minwax.
Not exactly sure what a "finish snob" is, but last time I checked this is a PROFESSIONAL Finishing Forum. The idea being we help each other get better and that includes sharing new ideas and techniques.
Can you explain the steps you used to prep the wood? While minwax is not the greatest, what you are seeing is not a stain performance problem but rather a prep or application problem and by saying this I am not saying you are not competent in any way.
By just looking at the picture the two things that come to mind that I would look at first is whether the stain was applied heavy, not wiped off and when brushed the varnish redissolved the layers of stain in areas and pulled it off. The other would be if the lighter areas still had some prior finish in the fibers that prevented the wood from absorbing the stain.
If you could post your sanding schedules it would give us a better idea.
I've had bad luck with minwax so I don't use it anymore
Minwax takes way too long to dry and some colors needs several days for it to really dry
But if you really want to use minwax I would spray a sealer after the stain
Then sand it then top coat
You shouldn't have any problems
But I would look into other products if I were you
Mohawk has some really good stain
Give it a try
BTW I do not have as many years of experience as you do but I'm still learning
I'm not so sure about the stain lifting or re-dissolving into the varnish. Where did it go if it lifted? I don't see any evidence of any stain in the varnish? It wouldn't be that clear if some of the stain was in it since it is a medium color. The light areas are almost white. Blushing wouldn't be that transparent either.
When looking at the one of the light spots, I see what looks like a machining pattern. It could also be a pattern that is left from corrugated cardboard. Did you possibly cover the top at some point with cardboard? They could also be marks from a wide belt sander. Just wondering because cardboard can have a wax coating on it and it can transfer possibly causing the stain no to adhere.
I know this doesn't help you but I kind of like how it looks.
I see what Jeff is talking about ; but to me it looks like mill-marks from a knife planer . any chance the dis-coloration is only evident in the areas containing mill-marks ? perhaps machine glazing prevented stain penetration ?
was excess stain wiped off ? or built/layered and allowed to dry without removing the excess ??
i used plenty of minwax products back in the day....never had a problem . brushed their varnish over their stain ; ragged on gel varnish ; sprayed pre-cat ; probably even waterbase . .....no problems .
Thanks for all your help! While not digressing into brand battles....I am open to theories. I'm sure it's either what I did...how I did it, or the status and condition of the product, and its application. Let's keep brand loyalty out of it, lol.
No deviation from my normal process. These boards have been used before, they are 110 year old white pine barn boards. My website is full of tables and furniture of success. I always lightly plane, keeping some marks, wear, and character. Glue then usually belt sand with 80 then 120 grit.
Soft, aged, porous wood, so it gobbles up the stain. Heavy app with a brush, and by and large it all gets soaked in, nothing really left on the surface to wipe. But admittedly, left and did not wipe.
Day two, second heavy app with brush to darken further. Relative suspicion....coat number one was not "dry" even tho no surface dampness or anything. Waited two days if not three, before varnishing. Looked and felt good to the touch. Not tacky at all or anything.
Varathane oil poly Satin. Always use it, like it. But was an open can, and 20% full only.
Other suspicion....could there be either an excess of, or lack of the "satin" element?
While I always stain with a brush, and often don't wait 3 days...I never have seen this issue. for what it's worth...after looking this am, I can sort of confidently say that there were more than a few of these bleach marks on the legs that now seem to have cured, or evaporated, or whatever...disappeared. And I can pretty much say the top is "less" white or bleached than in the pic...but still way evident. The pic was taken 20-30 min after varnish application.
Anyway....I don't understand it. But have to believe it's related to the humidity level (still very high here) the heavy two coats of stain, the "some sort" of reaction to the varnish. Thanks again....ask anything, I'm not afraid of suggestions of incorrect application or wrong doing. Just don't need to sort through brand battles...trying to solve THIS riddle bettor or worse.
Classic case out not letting the second coat dry long enough. The second heavy coat will take way longer to dry especially if the first coat is not bone dry and the high humidity. The crystalization your seeing is suspended solvents from the 2nd coat in your varnish. It may off gas (as you noticed) completely in time which you may or may not have. I use and would recommend General Finish RTM dye/stains for interior work or their line of exterior stains. They dry fast look way better than minwax and can be used under solvent finishes.
The only "sure" way to figure out what happened is to repeat the process on some wood from the same batch, altering exactly one variable at a time. Prep the wood the same, try a fresh can of Minwax, topcoat with the same varnish. If that doesn't correct it, try a different can of varnish next time.
Repeat until cause becomes clear. If nothing works, it's probably something in the wood. For all you know, someone could have spilled a gallon of motor oil on it 5 years ago...
you dont have a pic with stain only by any chance ?
well , its obvious the stain was "removed" during the varnish application......physical contact/manipulation via brush . but there is no "smear" marks in the clear coat ( that i can see anyway) , which is what I would expect to see if the stain was softened by the solvents in the varnish/poly . the stain couldnt just disappear....it would soften and then bleed into the varnish and get brushed out with the varnish . pretty sure that would be visible . does top coat look normal / clear ?
Im starting to lean toward chemical reaction .......varnish vs. contaminant . 100 years is a lot of opportunity .
why didnt the oil stain react or behave differently when applied over the contaminant ?
calling bill nye the science guy.....
sand it off , re-stain with all new product . I would advise to always wipe excess pigment stain . always...always....always . heres why.....if you were to ever call a tech line after experiencing an adhesion failure , the voice on the line will ask about your staining procedure . if you fess up that you dont wipe the excess stain , I guarantee the techs response will be " thats the problem.....sorry , your fault "
As you know from experience, Minwax stain works well, and it's properties are essential to your hand applied finish schedule. The key to it's success in this application is the drying oil that's used to bind the colorants (dye and pigments) to the wood. Once the oil component in the stain has a chance to cure, it will not lift or smear when the clear coat finish is brushed on. You intuitively know what the problem is - the humidity is high and you applied 2 heavy coats of stain a day or two apart, followed by a hand-applied oil-base varnish.
Drying oils (e.g., linseed oil) cure slowly; once exposed to the air, they absorb oxygen and begin to cross-link and turn into a solid (polymerize). The factors that affect the speed of the cure include how thick the oil is applied and whether the coated item is stored in a warm, dry space with exposure to sunlight while curing. If it's applied thick, the temperature is low, the humidity is high, or it's stored in the dark, the oil will cure more slowly.
By applying two heavy coats of oil-base stain a day or two apart, you increase the cure time significantly (though the depth of color is greatly improved). Under the best conditions the second coat of stain should be given 2-3 days to cure enough to topcoat. But with the humidity high, it can take as long as a few weeks. The stain will not necessarily feel tacky, but it will feel slightly oily and still have an odor. Once thoroughly cured, the stain will feel bone dry and have almost no odor.
It seems obvious that the stain was not properly cured and was easily damaged by the solvents in the varnish when you brushed it on. The areas where the stain was cured a little more still have color.
When you strip the table and start over, you'll see a similar streaking effect as the finish and stain come off. The stain probably has not completely cured and should be pretty easy to remove. Once oil based stains cure completely, you have to scrub them off using stripper and scotchbrite.
You mentioned that you applied the stain heavily and I agree with some other posts that this could be where the problem is. Sounds like you want a more opaque finish? Minwax type stains are both pigmented and dye based. If you let the solids settle, what remains is something like a dye stain. Having said that, here's a suggestion - apply a straight dye stain to get the background color you want. You can adjust this by adding another dye afterwards. Seal this and then apply a glazing stain that will bring it to a more opaque finish. Seal this and finish with your choice of topcoat.
FORUM GUIDELINES: Please review the guidelines below before posting at WOODWEB's Interactive Message Boards(return to top)
WOODWEB is a professional industrial woodworking site. Hobbyist and homeowner woodworking questions are inappropriate.
Messages should be kept reasonably short and on topic, relating to the focus of the forum. Responses should relate to the original question.
A valid email return address must be included with each message.
Advertising is inappropriate. The only exceptions are the Classified Ads Exchange, Machinery Exchange, Lumber Exchange, and Job Opportunities and Services Exchange. When posting listings in these areas, review the posting instructions carefully.
Subject lines may be edited for length and clarity.
"Cross posting" is not permitted. Choose the best forum for your question, and post your question at one forum only.
Messages requesting private responses will be removed - Forums are designed to provide information and assistance for all of our visitors. Private response requests are appropriate at WOODWEB's Exchanges and Job Opportunities and Services.
Messages that accuse businesses or individuals of alleged negative actions or behavior are inappropriate since WOODWEB is unable to verify or substantiate the claims.
Posts with the intent of soliciting answers to surveys are not appropriate. Contact WOODWEB for more information on initiating a survey.
Excessive forum participation by an individual upsets the balance of a healthy forum atmosphere. Individuals who excessively post responses containing marginal content will be considered repeat forum abusers.
Responses that initiate or support inappropriate and off-topic discussion of general politics detract from the professional woodworking focus of WOODWEB, and will be removed.
Participants are encouraged to use their real name when posting. Intentionally using another persons name is prohibited, and posts of this nature will be removed at WOODWEB's discretion.
Carefully review your message before clicking on the "Send Message" button - you will not be able to revise the message once it has been sent.
You will be notified of responses to the message(s) you posted via email. Be sure to enter your email address correctly.
WOODWEB's forums are a highly regarded resource for professional woodworkers. Messages and responses that are crafted in a professional and civil manner strengthen this resource. Messages that do not reflect a professional tone reduce the value of our forums.
Messages are inappropriate when their content: is deemed libelous in nature or is based on rumor, fails to meet basic standards of decorum, contains blatant advertising or inappropriate emphasis on self promotion (return to top).
Libel: Posts which defame an individual or organization, or employ a tone which can be viewed as malicious in nature. Words, pictures, or cartoons which expose a person or organization to public hatred, shame, disgrace, or ridicule, or induce an ill opinion of a person or organization, are libelous.
Improper Decorum: Posts which are profane, inciting, disrespectful or uncivil in tone, or maliciously worded. This also includes the venting of unsubstantiated opinions. Such messages do little to illuminate a given topic, and often have the opposite effect. Constructive criticism is acceptable (return to top).
Advertising: The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not an advertising venue. Companies participating in a Forum discussion should provide specific answers to posted questions. WOODWEB suggests that businesses include an appropriately crafted signature in order to identify their company. A well meaning post that seems to be on-topic but contains a product reference may do your business more harm than good in the Forum environment. Forum users may perceive your references to specific products as unsolicited advertising (spam) and consciously avoid your web site or services. A well-crafted signature is an appropriate way to advertise your services that will not offend potential customers. Signatures should be limited to 4-6 lines, and may contain information that identifies the type of business you're in, your URL and email address (return to top).
Repeated Forum Abuse:
Forum participants who repeatedly fail to follow WOODWEB's Forum Guidelines may encounter difficulty when attempting to post messages.
There are often situations when the original message asks for opinions: "What is the best widget for my type of shop?". To a certain extent, the person posting the message is responsible for including specific questions within the message. An open ended question (like the one above) invites responses that may read as sales pitches. WOODWEB suggests that companies responding to such a question provide detailed and substantive replies rather than responses that read as a one-sided product promotion. It has been WOODWEB's experience that substantive responses are held in higher regard by our readers (return to top).
The staff of WOODWEB assume no responsibility for the accuracy, content, or outcome of any posting transmitted at WOODWEB's Message Boards. Participants should undertake the use of machinery, materials and methods discussed at WOODWEB's Message Boards after considerate evaluation, and at their own risk. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages it deems inappropriate. (return to top)
Forum Posting Form Guidelines
The name you enter in this field will be the name that appears with your post or response (return to form).
Personal or business website links must point to the author's website. Inappropriate links will be removed without notice, and at WOODWEB's sole discretion. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
Your e-mail address will not be publicly viewable. Forum participants will be able to contact you using a contact link (included with your post) that is substituted for your actual address. You must include a valid email address in this field. (return to form)
Subject may be edited for length and clarity. Subject lines should provide an indication of the content of your post. (return to form)
Thread Related Link and Image Guidelines
Thread Related Links posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should point to locations that provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related Link that directs visitors to an area with inappropriate content will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
Thread Related File Uploads
Thread Related Files posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. Video Files: acceptable video formats are: .MOV .AVI .WMV .MPEG .MPG .MP4 (Image Upload Tips) If you encounter any difficulty when uploading video files, E-mail WOODWEB for assistance. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related File that contains inappropriate content will be removed, and uploaded files that are not directly related to the message thread will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links, files, or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
The editors, writers, and staff at Woodweb.com try to promote safe practices.
What is safe for one woodworker under certain conditions may not be safe
for others in different circumstances. Readers should undertake the use
of materials and methods discussed at Woodweb.com after considerate evaluation,
and at their own risk.