Message Thread:
really high-end finishes for commercial fixtures/surfaces
8/26/19
i'm curious to learn what i don't know.
we spray a 2k poly now and i understand it to be one of the best finishes for the application. i understand that uv finishes are better but more for standard size projects, since it is a machine-applied finish.
is there something better than 2k poly that will allow us to spray by hand (without a flat-line machine)? or is there a better 2k poly then what we are straying (illva)? i'm referring to performance characteristics of the finish and not anything else.
8/26/19 #2: really high-end finishes for commer ...
What are the characteristics you are looking for?
For most things people look for in polyurethane (gloss, abrasion resistance, chemical resistance), polyester would generally be a step up.
But *significantly* more annoying to deal with.
8/26/19 #3: really high-end finishes for commer ...
danny - scratch-resistancy and/or ease of repair. also, coating needs to be thin enough to maintain an open-pore look.
i understand polyester is too thick to keep an open-pore look, but have no experience here.
8/26/19 #4: really high-end finishes for commer ...
For those characteristics, the only thing i can think of off the top of my head would be polyurea's.
They are often customized to produce better properties along various axis, and easier to customize than urethanes.
They often have very short pot life (though it can be retarded to an hour or two through various chemistry), and are usually sprayed with plural guns, as some cure within seconds/minutes.
I've only seen them used in industrial-scale furniture operations so far.
Most of the other coatings i can think of will not give you an open pore look due to thickness required for an effective system, insufficient wetting, etc.
Mind you, it is almost certainly possible to develop better coatings along what you want if you restrict the application parameters/use cases.
(IE what is in common usage often tries to serve a lot of use cases and application range)
I just stuck with what you might be able to buy today.
8/26/19 #5: really high-end finishes for commer ...
danny - understood. i'm not looking to be able to provide the volume for a custom product, but am looking for alternatives (if they are readily available) to what we're shooting now. assuming we're not shooting good stuff already - i only have some much to compare it to.
i've heard about polyester under poly before, as being the "best" finish. how/why is this better than just poly? or is it "better" because of the grain filling abilities of the polyester?
8/27/19 #6: really high-end finishes for commer ...
Polyester is used for grain fill or the Lego look.
2K poly is the best you can get for your requirements. There is obviously a range of durability/hardness within the 2k class. I would buy a couple of other 2ks to compare it to your current flavor.
8/29/19 #7: really high-end finishes for commer ...
You're going to run into some unusual situations when it comes to scratch resistance. I've seen some 2K poly be ridiculously easy to scratch.
You'll have to keep in mind that a tempered glass table top cover will get scratched into oblivion in a few short years in a typical medium family house, and I doubt any of our finishes reach that level of hardness.
I have a cheap glossy lacquer finish on a 15 year old bookshelf that has hardly a scratch on it, sitting next to an 8 year old bookshelf sprayed with a satin conversion varnish that has visible scratches on it. That gloss lacquer shows deflects scratches way more than the tougher CV for some reason.
8/29/19 #8: really high-end finishes for commer ...
If you found 2k poly that is easy to scratch, or rather, significantly easier to scratch than CV, something went wrong. Most are harder than CV's, a few are as hard as CV (depends on what they really are).
They are more finicky in chemical reaction than CV, so it's easier to end up with screwed up film properties if you are not careful.
8/29/19 #9: really high-end finishes for commer ...
do you guys have some experience and/or recommendations for the most scratch-resistance 2k poly? we only have mlc as a local distributor so my options to experiment are a limited.
we're using ilva's technoline product. it is marketed as being more scratch resistant than most but i have nothing to compare it to. i tried to get ica products but their local rep told me they wouldn't have anything as good as what we are spraying now. mlc's polarian (sp) is a three or four coat process and i'm supposed to be testing mlc's coda product in a month. i'm not excited about either because both are three to four coats total. longer dry times in between coats, higher costs, and higher builds. all are negative to what we are spraying now. plus, it is a newish offering from mlc and i've had bad experiences with new mlc products in the past.
8/29/19 #10: really high-end finishes for commer ...
Chemcraft makes nice polyurethanes but the ones I use are slow drying (as are most non-modified urethanes).
They work really well though for what I use them for, which is open pore finish that doesn't look like it is there. I haven't explored all of them to see if there are faster dry times.
Polarion was ... not that great of a product in my experience (sucked at open-pore)
What are your dry times now?
I have Coda but haven't gotten a chance to spray it yet. It is acrylic modified, which is why it dries faster. It will not be as nice in final properties as the chemcraft stuff.
It is 35-45 minute dry time, so faster than polarion.
Krystal is 30-40 minutes, which is what i sprayed before, so it's not too bad.
But if you were using magnamax or something with 15-20 minute dry time, yeah, that's gonna be tough.
8/29/19 #11: really high-end finishes for commer ...
technoline - our experience -
dry to touch - 20-30 minutes (non-forced air/heated dry. sometimes we are spraying other things in the booth and leave the fan on. we put a fan on the seal coat to dry it quicker).
scuff sand and top coat - 1hour - this is our minimum and the quickest we'll get on it. sealer sands very nicely and will booger if we get on it too quickly (indicating that we need to wait longer). we top coat immediately after we scuff.
we're doing a lot of tables so we spray the bottom one day and let it dry overnight. we spray the top the next day without any imprinting on the bottom (but who cares, it is the bottom) and assemble and ship on the third day. when pressed, we'll spray both sides in one day. we'll give it 3-4 hours to dry on the bottom before rolling over and spraying the top. typically, we don't get any imprinting on the bottom side. we're always putting a fan on our pieces to help speed the cure times. i'm not sure how much it helps but i think it does.
what times are you getting with non-modified chemcraft?
8/29/19 #12: really high-end finishes for commer ...
The unmodified polyurethanes chemcraft has (ora verde acrillico) are 3-4 hour dry time.
The fastest one they have is 1 hour.
This will all get better with isocyanate free formulations - the dry times should be much faster.
Sayerlack has one but i haven't looked at the PDS.
8/29/19 #13: really high-end finishes for commer ...
p.i. sheet from ilva says 6-8 hours between sealer and top coat. i don't know anyone following this to a "t". we can wipe with paper (dust nubs) without any scratches the next day. this would be around 20-24 hours later.
8/29/19 #14: really high-end finishes for commer ...
Yeah, you can definitely do better than that, geez.
As you can see, you can also force dry them at a fairly low air temp (IE without a real oven).
That may be worth you looking into.
Chemcraft Ora Verde® Acrilico
8/29/19 #15: really high-end finishes for commer ...
Website: niemeyerrestoration.com
ICA Wood Coatings has a line of urethanes that have a higher scratch resistance that is used in the office furniture industry. Give them a call.
8/29/19 #16: really high-end finishes for commer ...
Bob, if you read his followup, he said " i tried to get ica products but their local rep told me they wouldn't have anything as good as what we are spraying now. "
8/30/19 #17: really high-end finishes for commer ...
Website: niemeyerrestoration.com
DannyB, maybe the Rep dont know about the product. Trust me it is better than MLC.
8/30/19 #18: really high-end finishes for commer ...
bob,
is there a specific product you are referring to?
i spoke with the regional ica factory two ro three years ago and he told me he didn't have a product that would be a better option for us. our local wurth carries some ica stuff and that is who turned me on to the rep to get that guy's opinion. maybe he just didn't want to service me, idk.
8/30/19 #19: really high-end finishes for commer ...
I have no doubt the ICA poly will be better than what you can get from MLC (like i said, i don't think polarion/etc are that great of products), but in the end, if they don't want to work with him, ....
8/30/19 #20: really high-end finishes for commer ...
danny - how would it (ica) compare to illva?
yeah, i have no plans to use polarian and limit what mlc stuff i use (mostly just stains and those are without many issues).
8/30/19 #21: really high-end finishes for commer ...
Bob may be a better judge of that, IIRC, he uses a lot of both products.
I've only worked directly with ilva, milesi, chemcraft, and mlc.
8/30/19 #22: really high-end finishes for commer ...
Website: niemeyerrestoration.com
There are many things that Wurth does not know about. What part of the country are you located? This way I know what Dist can service you. Also I will get you the product code. If you need your finish to "snap off" and cure much faster you can get a accelerant to add to it but it also cuts the pot life in half. Ilva and ICA have always been direct competitors each are good at certain niche's in the PU market. Look at their(ICA) website, do you see Ilva doing what ICA is doing? The labs, the in house university, application labs ect...... I am not going to sit here and quote all kinds of fancey chemistry lingo cause all a finisher really wants is a product that does its job without product misrepresentation. Might take a couple days to get your info with the holiday weekend.
9/3/19 #23: really high-end finishes for commer ...
bob - is there a specific ica product you think would work for my needs? i can possibly adjust my spray times. i'm just looking for the best possible product.
9/3/19 #24: really high-end finishes for commer ...
Website: niemeyerrestoration.com
Ask about getting some OP446. It comes in several different sheens.That product has worked very well for many.
There is also another system using a different urethane/catalyst. I dont want to post that system here as it is very specialized in what products are mixed and how they are mixed. If you email me I can get you in contact with the right person and Dist.
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