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Water Based Finishes

1/31/16       
Jeremy

Hello- I opened my cabinet shop five years ago and have been using General Finishes Enduro Clear Poly for my finish. However, due to newer equipment and basic learning skills, projects are moving through the shop faster than before. I have been having problems with the finish getting scratches and scuffs in it due to the fact that it takes 14 days for cure. Are there any water based finishes that cure more rapidly or is that the average timeline for these types of finishes. Sometimes there are only days between spraying and going out to the jobsite, such as trim or paneling. I just can't wait two weeks to send some of these products out. Thanks

1/31/16       #2: Water Based Finishes ...
nick

I've been using Target 8000 & 9000 when jobs are spec-ed for a WB finish and I've have stacked (foam sheets between finished surfaces), wrapped and packed in as little as 48 hours with little to no damage...that said at this short of cure time (or anytime less than a week) I give specific orders that every thing is to be unwrapped immediately upon arrival at the job site. Over a week, I've left them stacked but not wrapped 6 doors deep in the store room with no damage.Target claims a full cure in 7 days under optimum conditions...so, I keep the drying room at 65-70 degrees with a bit of air movement also important to note, I live in an area with low humidity.

2/1/16       #3: Water Based Finishes ...
Robert Member

Although target & general are both....ok to fine WB finish ( i use quite frequently Target ) you should look and consider at other brands that offer a non precat WB, in other word, a bi-component not only will output a harder, longer lasting quality finish, better build.....but most important in you quest....allowing you to kinda "tailor" the drying / curing time !

2/1/16       #4: Water Based Finishes ...
Jeremy Horvath

Thanks for the responses. By a non pre-cat WB product do you mean something like a WB conversion varnish? The cure time problem really comes into play when I am putting the face frames on the cabinet boxes. My assembly table is covered with a soft blanket but the face frames are placed face down when I pocket screw the sides and tops to them. That is where the issue with scratching comes in because it seems like a little flake or gob of sawdust is all it takes. I will look into target coatings as well

2/1/16       #5: Water Based Finishes ...
Robert Member

" By a non pre-cat WB product do you mean something like a WB conversion varnish? "....No !
Do some homework !!
Target conversion varnish ( and most others WB brand) are pre-cat !
Target may offer a X-link, although this is a linker hardening a little more their base products, is has nothing to do with bi-component ( in the solvent world it is known as acid cure....).
Do some search, some homework !!
ICA and Milesi to name just a couple !!
All the best ;0)

2/1/16       #6: Water Based Finishes ...
ronb

Website: http://www.ronbryze.com

Jeremy,
Not here to promote any product, but European water base technology is very different than that of most American companies. Single componant waterbornes can have a pack time of 2-4 hours. 2 componant waterbornes have the performance charicteristics of CV and pack and stack times of 12-24 hours.

As Robert said, it does pay to do your homework.

ronb

2/2/16       #7: Water Based Finishes ...
Rick Mosher

Go to UV cure. Pack it as it comes out of the light.

2/2/16       #8: Water Based Finishes ...
Robert Member

Ron opinion.....ONE that I allways respect.
Thks to Ron contributing here....and many other places & forums

UV cure WB !!.....never had the chance to try nor do I know any company offering ?!
( never look for either !! )
Any suggestions ?

2/2/16       #9: Water Based Finishes ...
RobertJ

For RonB: COMPONANT?
Should it not be ComponEnt?

2/2/16       #10: Water Based Finishes ...
Jeremy

Robert I am sorry if my question upset you a little. I am 33 now and a self taught cabinetmaker except for the information that I find in printed material or on the internet, so I consider this as doing my homework. Where I live here in WI there are only 2 or 3 other cabinet shops in a 75 mile radius. Heck, I have to drive 45 minutes to get to a Sherwin Williams store even. So there is not much help in this trade here and those shops use lacquer for a finish and I am not to impressed with that product. thank you Ron for your input because your website is full of information when it comes to finishing.

2/2/16       #11: Water Based Finishes ...
Robert Member

Dear Jeremy....
Upset, definitely....not at all ;0))

If I came "to" direct for you, then excuse my direct but simple reply. All I've met was....just that !!, do some simple google & web search before jumping to fast at some question !
...."Heck, I have to drive 45 minutes to get to a Sherwin Williams store even"
As for distance, I can truly ( as many out there) simpetise ! I too live quite far from any small to medium size important city !...I live in the country mountain side, and worst, I'm in Quebec, where....we do not have any finishing company, all my stuff comes either from US or Europe .....
But, thks to UPS & others, life is good in the woods ;0))

See....it always seem "greener" and simpler on the neighbor backyard... @_# !!
Enjoy...a great day !

2/2/16       #12: Water Based Finishes ...
Rick Mosher  Member

Website: profinisher.blogspot.com/

"UV cure WB !!.....never had the chance to try nor do I know any company offering ?!
( never look for either !! )"

Sherwin Williams and Ilva both have WB UV cure products. We had a flat line system in MA and I was skeptical as well. Floor finishing companies have been using the technology for years as well as guitar makers. The durability is better than a 2K urethane and the UV technology works with polyester so I could do a full filled high gloss buffed finish in one day.

2/2/16       #13: Water Based Finishes ...
JeffA

Robert, do your homework. WB UV systems have been around for over 20 years. They are not for everyone tho. You must spray all UV products in an isolated booth and must wear a respirator. As noted, a UV processor is also needed after forced dry to expel the water.

2/3/16       #14: Water Based Finishes ...
John Member

Robert, I'm a small time guy, too, and also use several GF products, including Enduro Clear Poly. I have had no trouble with it getting scratched after only a day or two, although I am careful in handling parts. It seems to reach full cure in about 7 days as far as I can tell, or at least close enough to full cure that it can take substantial abuse. Testing I did showed Clear Poly to be very hard and abrasion resistant.

If you put the face frames on a foam pad or soft blanket you should not be getting any defects after 2 or 3 days of curing. Are you sure your pads are reasonably clean and don't have abrasive particles stuck in them?

You do know that the minimum application and cure temp. for that product is at least 60 F, right? And it cures much faster at 70 F. I keep my shop at about 68 F when I spray the stuff.

John

2/6/16       #15: Water Based Finishes ...
Brian T

I sprayed target and GF for years. Great stuff but now we use Sayerlack. Sayerlack is a european formula which I believe is there af72 product line.

Spray it out, let it flash, put it in front of fans and pack it a few hours later if necessary. I haven't sprayed any other WB in 3-4 years. I stopped spraying wb for a few years and only used CV, pre cat and 2ks. We tried Sayerlack and I decided that the technology and chemistry of this product warranted full time use.

I should add we spray many products. 50% solvent and 50% WB. I never thought we would be using so much WB but the tech has finally caught up.

2/8/16       #16: Water Based Finishes ...
Richard Mellor Member

Brian, where are you buying sayerlack from? I have asked my Sherwin Williams rep about getting some, and his answer was it isn't available in the SF bay area unless you were buying huge quantities.
Thanks, Richard

2/8/16       #17: Water Based Finishes ...
RobertJ

My Sherwin Williams rep makes me buy in 5 gallon pails.....no single gallons available. Not good when you have a small job and my understanding is that most waterborne lacquers have a shelf life of less than one year.

2/8/16       #18: Water Based Finishes ...
Brian T

Sherwin Williams carries it locally here. We get it in 6.6 gallon pails and drums but I'm in just outside of Boston. I'm surprised the reps can't get a gallon sent to you for trials. Waterbased is much easier to ship then solvent products.

2/11/16       #19: Water Based Finishes ...
Bart

This sounds like a handling issue to me. We do nothing but pre-finished. I've been using GF products since before they were GF. I cut my teeth on solvents mostly SW CV. You don't drag or pull doors etc.. across dedicated moving/stacking blankets. You place or lift them. You don't stack face to face. You put another blanket on top of doors stacked back to back. Treat it like YOU own it. Also if I can avoid it I don't put the final coat on the back and front the same day. This gives the back some time to cure and take the weight on the rack so not leave a drying rack mark.

Back in the CV days made and finished an island wall skinned in Mahog. Sat in the shop for a week curing. A guy onsite volunteered to help us unload our cabs. Watched in horror as he pulled the wall across the blankets before we could stop him! Nice cross grain scratches, back to the shop.

my rant 4 the day
cheers

2/12/16       #20: Water Based Finishes ...
Nick

Sayerlack sounds interesting so l investigated and it seems my SW rep is going to get me a couple of gallons to try out. They have a large and somewhat overwhelming product line... It would be helpful to know what Sayerlack products are you guys using?

2/12/16       #21: Water Based Finishes ...
Charles Member

I am also curious to learn what Sayerlack products others are using, and for what product lines (kitchens? furniture? other?). I have been using both water-borne and solvent-borne products for over a decade. I prefer WB, but I have issues with the WB pigmented product (they have cost me lots of $$$ in two reworked projects), so I spray solvent-borne for paint-grade projects. I would like to find one system that has both clear and pigmented in WB.

I looked at the Sayerlack website and the number of products is quite overwhelming.

Before I contact a SW rep, I would like to have some knowledge of their products. It may also tell me if the SW rep actually knows something about this product line when I do talk to him for the first time. It has been the case in the past where I have had more product knowledge than the reps. :-(

I am also one of those shops out in the middle of "no-where" and depend on UPS and Fedex. Life is good with daily deliveries to my front door.

2/12/16       #22: Water Based Finishes ...
Brian T

We use AF72 clears. 00-90 sheen. These also work very well for bright colors and we have also made pearls with this product for special applications.

At99 is the off the shelf pigmented product that we also use a lot of. It sprays well and lays out flat. Still not quite as flat as pre cat CV or 2k but it's close. We still use far more solvent for topcoats but we have been slowly increasing the WB percentage of our line.

We are also about to try one of their WB primers which is good for interior and exterior use. I will keep you posted on this product as well.

We currently use a chemcraft WB primer which works great but is a little tough to cut back so we our still trying other options.

2/12/16       #23: Water Based Finishes ...
Robert Member

"so I spray solvent-borne for paint-grade projects. I would like to find one system that has both clear and pigmented in WB. "
Charles....!!
Another easily & widely available, good product.....is to have a peak at ML Campbell complet WB line, you'll find an interesting good commercial alternative there !
My 2ct advice ;o) !

2/14/16       #24: Water Based Finishes ...
Charles Member

Robert,

Thanks for the reply. I originally wanted to leave brand names out of my post. However, since you mentioned MLC...

I have been using MLC WB Agualente Clear Satin for several years and really like it. I actually prefer it over MLC's MagnaMax solvent product. I like the end results better.

The problem I had was with the pigmented version of Agualente. I actually had two problems. First, the stain-blocking primer (white) did not always hide the mineral streaks in maple veneer plywood. The problem did not show up until about a week after the entire project was complete. Those were the two reworks I mentioned. The other problem was solvent-pop on the finish coat. This I resolved with technique: lay down thinner coats. I flat-finish all my parts, then assemble. So getting even, thin coats is normally not an issue at all. Where I was having problems was spraying the recessed/interior corner sections of flat-panel (aka Shaker style) doors. Like I said, I resolved that with technique. But I won't risk the mineral-streak, bleed-through issue again.

Now, I see that MLC has a newer version of Agualente called Agualente Plus. My distributor gave me the spec sheets, but no one so far has been able to tell me the performance difference and/or improvement. Did they improve the stain-blocking characteristics? I don't know. I would like to know if anyone else has any knowledge of this new product.

2/14/16       #25: Water Based Finishes ...
Bart

Mineral and knot stains are usually obvious after the first coat of primer. I have a rattle can of Zinnser shellac based stain blocker handy and hit the offending area. Done deal. You can hit any areas after the second coat if needed. Then lay on your final coats. Been using that method for years with GF
tinted poly and undercoater.

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