Hi folks,

I’m seeing if anyone has experience with either Milesi waterborne clear or magnamax H2O on cherry? Durability isn’t my issue, more the color I’m worried about. I’m looking for a recipe to mimic an oil base finish that will darken over time. I used to finish with enviromax but am switching over to waterborne full time! My current solution is antique oil base coat then 2 top coats magnamax and have had no compatibility issues. However, magnamax is allittle orange in my opinion. Wondering what other woodworkers using waterborne on cherry are doing to get a rich color! Thanks in advance

1 coat of Zinsser Sealcoat to pop the grain
2 coats of Aqualante

I haven’t tried the Magmax h20

The darkening is caused by oxidation and UV damage. No finish stops it.

As said, all of them will darken over time, with only the amount of uv inhibitor changing how fast that happens.

If you don't particularly care, spray something non-yellowing.

Any of milesi's interior non-yellowing waterbornes should work fine.

When i was using waterborne i did what Adam said. Zinsser sealcoat and then top coat with waterborne.

Nicko

Magnamax H2O says this: "IMPORTANT – product is designed to mimic solvent based appearance on wood and therefore has an
amber cast."

IE you should not need anything under it.

It also says to use agualente plus sealer under it if you need one, and as a urethane, i'd generally follow instructions, as urethanes are tricky.

For the milesi stuff:

I would never apply a harder finish like milesi's 2k urethane (or any post-catalyzed finish) over a soft finish like dewaxed shellac.

My guess is that the dewaxed shellac will just melt into the topcoat anyway (and be a bit weird), since it is dissolved/softened by almost anything. But it's just asking for trouble.

I also know of at least 2 finishers with major failures (IE needing to strip large pieces) due to using dewaxed shellac under 2k *solventborne* urethane, but i don't think why waterborne would be any different.

(waxed shellac is a definitely going to cause failure, but sealcoat is dewaxed).

I'd go with a 2k sealer if you want to use 2k stuff.
If you want it to look like it was hit with a solventborne, either tint it amber slightly, or just hit it with a solventborne 2k sealer.

Daniel,

You are incorrect about Sealcoat.

I’ve used many many brands of wb finish with it. Likewise oil/solvent based stains.

We use the shellac with transtint dye as a toner coat under wb topcoats. We use shellac as a barrier coat between oil based stains and wb topcoats.

The solvent based stains dry so fast and completely that we have no issues going over them with wb.

Your ie. is bs. You can use many products under Magnamax h2o. What about stains?

2k has very aggressive solvents, so I would be surprised if it didn’t like shellac.

I have also used sealcoat under WB many times with no problems.I just spray a spit coat and that is all you need to give it a solvent color. I have sprayed it under Target Coatings WB finishes with no problem although i think they recommend using shellac from flakes instead of sealcoat.

nicko

I have to chuckle here, I thought the idea here is to have a waterbased finish system and now you laying down a coat of shellac?
Many other ways to get a solvent look with water. It is not the amber tone that makes it look like solvent, as many solvent based coatings are "water white". It is more about the "wetting" of the substrate by the coating itself.
Shellac is not very durable, why would you want that as your first coat on your substrate?
Us in the Professional world of wood finishing have many other ways to make a complete waterbased finish system look like solvent.

Well then Bob instead of chuckling why don't you help the OP out with your ways of doing WB to look like solvent like you "professionals" do. Instead of taking a holier than thou attitude about it. I have cherry WB furniture from fifteen years ago when there wasn't a clear way to make a WB finish look like solvent. I did it with seal coat and that furniture still looks as beautiful today as when it left my shop.

nicko

nicko, I am glad that system has worked for you.
Waterbased coatings are always getting better and better. With the European companies coming to the U.S. market it has opened the door to many nice products and has also made the US manufactures step up their game.
Many of the manufactures have sealers that wet the substrate just as good as solvents. Also, adjusting staining techniques can help emphasize the "wet" look of the substrate.
Microlith based stains are very good at providing deep rich colors. Blending a little dye into the microlith stain will enhance the look even more.
It takes lots of searching and trials to find the products that will work for you. Also, service and tech support from a DIst are very important. European staining systems are very different. Call a few Reps and have them demo the european stain systems.
I think you will be surprised at the results.

Bob,

We likewise started using Sealcoat when it first came on the market(mid 90’s?). At that time the wb were all glass clear. Other than adding transtint to a clear it was hard to get the amber look. Some people just like what they have seen their whole lives. Water clear looks really good over many woods. Most of the cv’s are quite clear.

As you are aware in the early days the wb’s did not pop the grain. Target definitely changed the market.

As for first coat durability, it’s irrelevant. The durability of a watered down sealer coat of wb, shellac, or solvent has no durability. The top coats provide all of it.

Like I mentioned back in the day the wb stains were not good. The shellac provided a way to use the with the oil stains.

At the end of the day, a little alcohol that is gone in 30 minutes is way better & safer than solvent voc’s.

Mid 2000’s

Adam, first coat durability is a big deal. If there is poor adhesion or some other incompatibility you will have complete finish system failure at the substrate level.
Every step of the system matters, from the seal coats, build coats and topcoat. I will even include the sanding of the substrate and staining as part of the system. Over sand and you will have issues, wrong stain chemistry or stain over loaded with colorants you will have issues.
Waterbased finishes have come a long ways we are not "back in the days" anymore.

Bob,

Obviously, I can’t convince you of something you don’t believe.

All I know is many people have successfully used Zinsser Sealcoat shellac for well over a decade.

It is an excellent sanding sealer, barrier coat, toner base and is compatible with most common waterborne finishes.

I agree with you that every step is important. The durability of the sealer coat is effectively the wood itself. The top coats provide the durability.

The original poster wanted a better look than he was achieving with a wb. I simply suggested another option. I stand by it.

Lets’s call it quits.

To the OP, I use Magnamax H2O quite often, it's my go to finish for cherry, walnut and maple. Here are some doors I built and used the Magnamax H2O. I usually can sand and re-coat in 20-30 minutes, spray 3-4 wet mil, 3 coats. Dries quickly, powders up nicely when sanding. Be careful as it will easily sag on verticals.

View higher quality, full size image (2016 X 1512)

View higher quality, full size image (1512 X 2016)

View higher quality, full size image (2016 X 1512)

Adam,

Ignoring the rest of this, where i agree with Bob that i wouldn't use shellac:

"Your ie. is bs. You can use many products under Magnamax h2o. What about stains?
"

I think you misunderstood.

The reason given for using sealcoat was to "pop the grain".

Because magnamax h2o is tinted amber to pop the grain, you shouldn't *need* to use anything under it to pop the grain.
Using sealcoat under it *for that purpose* should be pointless.

You seem to have misinterpreted what i said there to mean you *can't* use anything under it.

I never said that, nor would I.
Plenty of stuff will work fine under it, ml campbell has an entire line of compatible stains and dyes.

Ive used the Magnamax H20. It works well, and gives SOME color. If you really want to help the grain out a light WB stain first should help. To everyone having great luck with sealcoat, Im really glad it works as well as you say it does for you. Ive never had this luck with it. And you have to have separate rigs and solvents. I actually find I can be faster with an all water system. As long as your components are all compatible you can bend all of the recoat times in your favor. And fewer adhesion/moisture resistance issues... I could go on...

Can we at least agree that there really are two scoops of raisins in Kellogs raisin bran ?

I've had good luck with Target's water modified shellac sealer. Dries fast, adds a bit of color and sands well. I believe it to be compatible with most water based topcoats.

I have done a number of pieces in cherry with nice results. The gift of cherry is it will continue to age after finishing. What I have found works the best for me is sealing with a mixed shellac from flakes. I like the super blonde for cherry, but you can tone it or use other shades of shellac such as garnet. I topcoat with Target EM6000. If I have time, after final sanding, I will put the piece out in the sun (watching the weather) for a day or two. You will be surprised how much tone the wood will take on in a short period of time.