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Subject: Re: 12” slider

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Message Thread:

12” slider

2/1/20       
Adam

Festool is not an option. Do not mention it.

I need a new 12” slider. Our Bosch 12” Glide has turned out to be a framing saw.

I wasn’t really happy with the straightness of the sliding action when I bought it. The head is so heavy that it overcomes the stiffness of those unique hinges. The angle detents have always been testy. Those are obviously adjustable. However the problem is there is too much movement/wear in the mechanism(plastic) to stay 45. It will stay square. There is no adjustment.

It is out of warranty. I sent it back to Bosch awhile ago for repair. The tech honestly said there is nothing that will fix them. He has seen quite a few of them with the same problem. He’s had Bosch replace many under warranty over the years.

The fences are terrible for vertical cutting of base & crown. Too flexy out of the box. This is the worst sliding mitersaw I’ve owned(6) in 25 years.

What is currently a good saw? It will be fastened to a saw bench in a shop and occasionally used in the field on a good stand.

2/2/20       #2: 12” slider ...
Mark B Member

I dont think any 12" construction grade slider is ever going to meet the needs of a heavily used shop saw. They are designed with too many factors in mind and for field work that in a precise hundreds of times per day use environment they are going to suffer. Most every model I have been around will require user(s) to adapt techniques to get good results.

If you've been through that many saws its probably way beyond time to move to a true commercial shop saw. Or at the very least a nice quality RAS but there are issues with all of them. Cost, sized, speed of changing setups.

An omga fixed will likely be a major suggestion as most do not need the slide capacity.

2/2/20       #3: 12” slider ...
Adam

Mark,

It’s used as both an in shop saw & install saw. We have a small shop and also do finish carpentry in the big houses.

We have other saws. I didn’t say they were all broken. They are older and still work fine. The Bosch one was supposed to be the new better one in the lineup. It’s a bad design.

2/2/20       #4: 12” slider ...
Adam

Mark,

It’s used as both an in shop saw & install saw. We have a small shop and also do finish carpentry in the big houses. We used to spend half of the year trimming. You go through a few saws in 25 years. The industry also went from 8-12. We skipped 10’s. 6” crown needs a 12” saw.

We have other saws. I didn’t say they were all broken. They are older and still work fine. The Bosch one was supposed to be the new better one in the lineup. It’s a bad design.

2/2/20       #5: 12” slider ...
Karl E Brogger  Member

Website: http://www.sogncabinets.com

Plastic saws are for carrying into houses and out to the dumpster.

In a shop, get an omga or a good radial arm saw. Bolt it down and forget when you bought it.

2/2/20       #6: 12” slider ...
kevin

Im not much for being told what to say, but the festool ks120 is not a bad saw, but its not a 12" saw. There seems to be alot of anti festool discrimination lately, and maybe its not unfounded? For many years before woodworking and carpentry became "cool" only industry pros would have even heard about Festo (how it was called...).As it has been said any mainstream 12" saw will not meet the grade. Omga and old Hitachies (c15 types) are great options, old Hitachies can be found on ebay sometime, even NOS! By the way the price of a top line Omga is 3-4 times that of a festool cry once i say! one drawback to consider with the Omga is it runs on 3 phase or 230 volt single not available on most trim jobs; most dead beat GCs ive worked for cant even coordinate a single 15amp outlet for the whole job...

2/2/20       #7: 12” slider ...
Adam

I’ll try again. I need a new 12” slider for doing installs. Opinions based on one’s own personal experience. Your saw was purchased and used for enough hours to wear & break stuff in the last three years or if they haven’t changed the design in awhile.

Kevin,

Festool only makes 10”. Festool is also not in the budget.

We all have our favourites. I started at a shop that had the Hitachi 15”. Amazing. Unfortunately the aluminium detents wore.
8” Hitachi slider was amazing. Later, sold it to a friend after a million feet of trim. There was a 12” Dewalt mitersaw. It was a good install saw. (2) 12” Dewalt 708(vertical rail) slider. I had one permenantly in the shop and have one in the field. This is my favourite saws of all time until the belt & bearings go.

Unfortunately, Black & Decker tried to ruin Dewalt by selling junk for many years and I don’t trust them. I’d buy another of the 708’s tomorrow if it was still in a box.

We have a radial arm saw. So stop bothering me about using a slider in a shop. 2 guys can’t use the same saw at the same time. If I’m mitering mouldings for cabinet doors or other fussy stuff, I would rather do it on a chopsaw sitting next to the work bench.

2/2/20       #8: 12” slider ...
Adam

This is the one was on my list. All of our cordless tools are 18v Makita(awesome).

Unfortunately, they have mis designed this one as well. Dewalt solved the problem in the mid 1990’s by going to the stainless detent and steel guide. They do not wear.

What is wrong with these companies??? Bosch is no good, Makita is no good. I’m back to Dewalt & Hitachi.

Makita 12” review

2/2/20       #9: 12” slider ...
Karl E Brogger  Member

Website: http://www.sogncabinets.com

The 10" Hitachi is one of the best install saws. INSTALL. Not available new, it'll take some hunting to find one, but they're out there. The Festool saw is really nice. Overpriced, but nice.

Go buy another real saw for the shop so two of you can use two saws independently of one another.

Not in the budget? Quit whining and make it happen.

2/2/20       #10: 12” slider ...
Jim Herron

I have a CTD in the shop. Switched on in the morning and runs all day. It WILL miter L&R but it is locked at 90 and never moved.
It can be found fairly cheap with some digging and uses a rear mounted v belt drive motor.
For install I have the trusty Hitachi 8" slider..the old good one.
I had 3 but sold two of them.
On that note I have a Hitachi 15 in good shape that I might part with.

2/3/20       #11: 12” slider ...
Adam

Karl,

Everything you wrote is either rude or wrong.

I am saving for a better cnc. The majority of houses we work in have 6” crown. 12” saws are a must.

Not all of us have or want large shops and large budgets. Festool is a waste of money.

I’ve managed to make a lot of money for 20 years with a small shop & finish carpentry.

Look for a used 10” Hitachi...

2/3/20       #12: 12” slider ...
Mark B Member

I think the point everyone is trying to make is the portable saws are what they are and you outlined the issues with them all in your own posts. They will all require some user finesse and they will all have issues in short order with frequent heavy use. And they will all suffer from flex even if the Hitachi's were the least. So if you must stay in that class for your shop saw your just going to have to hold your nose and pick one of the offerings and plan on replacing it yearly.

2/3/20       #13: 12” slider ...
David R Sochar Member

The DIY market for disposable plastic saws is huge. The market for good, portable shop saws is small. And woodworkers tend to be quiet in their demands of machine makers, putting up with all that crap all these years. Just go buy another.

I bought a CTD for shop use 25 years ago, and it still runs just fine. But it is cast iron, so not very portable. We also have a Bosch Slider that lives under a bench, and is used for some special cuts we can't do elsewhere. You have to hold your tongue just right and learn how to dance with it, but it works.

2/3/20       #14: 12” slider ...
Mark B Member

Thats always been my position with any construction slider. Once you become familiar with the nuances of the machine you can fudge any cut by 1/10 a degree or more just with the influence of you hand on the handle. You can shade or fat a 45 degree cut by a bit with a little pressure in either direction. A bit of rotational torque on the handle you can undercut a bevel just enough for a tight fit on the face. This is true with EVERY saw even the Festool. When I had this discussion at a distributor and they told me that wasnt possible with the Kapex we made several cuts and I showed them clearly that the user can influence the cut very easily which is actually very very handy in the hands of someone who takes advantage of it. You get a guy who just grabs and slams and all bets are off.

I ran Bosch 5412L's for years when we were doing field work. Gobs of fudge available at the extreme of the stroke. Great saws. Have a friend with a Glide that I swore would be my next saw if I ever bought another and have used it several times without a gripe about it for what it is other than most of the newer 12" sliders feel underpowered to me but that may be in the soft start. Never had an issue making very nice cuts with his saw. It will never hold up in the shop.

2/3/20       #15: 12” slider ...
Adam

I agree with all of you that none of these saws will last as a primary shop saw.

My shop has been well setup for decades. We have a nice big old super accurate radial. We have always had a secondary slider on a table that is semi permanent. We have always had two excellent sliders for field installs.

The most accurate ones that I’ve owned were listed above. About 1 1/2 years ago one of my Dewalt 708 died. I bought the 12” Glide to replace it. We still have the other Dewalt 708 for field work. Those saws are super accurate. The miters maintain 45 for an amazing amount of time in chip mode. Sure they wander when sliding all of the sliders do.

We use these saws onsite trimming for months at a time in one of the big houses. If we are both there we bring two saws. The newer saw is used in the shop when it’s not in the field. Those saws have accurately cut miles and miles of large poplar crown/base. One house years ago we had (4) guys full time for 4 months onsite. Each of us has a slider and a portable table saw. No sharing.

Over the years we have done more shop work(I hate driving). My good GC has another competent crew of finish carpenters. We do all of our own installs. The two of us will still spend 3-4 weeks onsite trimming from time to time.

The problem is that the newer fancier sliders are not like the older good ones we all have. The things that matter like detents are not long lasting or accurate from day one.

It reminds me of new appliances. They’ve got all the bell’s and whistles, but they break after a few years.

2/3/20       #16: 12” slider ...
Mark B Member

Your answer lies in that the US market has whored itself out and you, as a contractor, are now relegated to the exact same tool purchase as the painted fingernails and corporate job couple who watch a pinterest, youtube, or HGTV episode.

Manufacturers simply can no longer afford to make a line of tools for the gee gaw crowd, and a separate quality line for the pro crowd. So guess what? Majority rules. The gee gaw crowd are now buying the same tools you have access to at the home center. You no longer have access to a quality tool. You are Lowes, Home Depot, Amazon. That, OR, you are going to move yourself into a different market which means abandoning your field work.

You voted for corporate dominance and now thats what you have. The days of companies having two lines of product, one for the pro, and one for the budget conscious, are gone.

Again, in the realm you are choosing to operate in your only option is Lowes, Home Depot, Menards, et al, Amazon, and so on.

Consumer action has landed you in a place where you want options for quality but our buying habits have been dictated to us based on corporate profit.

You speak to Poplar. In the eyes of the home center, pinterest, diy, world, even in "big homes" that speaks to if a saw doesnt cut very well, its followed up by a paint crew with a pump trailer towed behind their truck, long leads, and 500 gallons of caulk, dispensed without compassion. And it still gets the oohs and ahhs.

2/3/20       #17: 12” slider ...
Karl E Brogger  Member

Website: http://www.sogncabinets.com

Rude, lol.

I wouldn't call my little piss ant operation large, or even medium sized.

The good options are pretty well gone, as Mark B pointed out. Any of that good stuff left, is real expensive and niche. But some stuff has gotten a whole lot cheaper, that nicer cnc used to be $400k, now it's better with better options for $125k.

I'm in a similar dilemma. I have a 6½" Makita I like for cutting crown, but it's getting sloppy and I've taken it apart to de-gunk and get things moving freely again too many times. It also doesn't double bevel, and that's annoying. Festool is kinda the midline of euro tools, but Mafell doesn't make a normal miter saw, or I'd plop down the money for that in a heartbeat.

You can cut crown flat on a smaller saw too. I've cut plenty of 7½ on that little Makita. I prefer cutting crown flat vs sprung on larger stuff most of the time anyways. But that's a preference thing.

2/4/20       #18: 12” slider ...
Leo G Member

I've had great result with my Bosch Axial Glide. Out of the box it sucked. The detents were off by 0.5º on the 45º setting. And if I got one right the other was off. The whole plastic detent was defective. I cut it in half at about the 22º mark and now the 45º are independently adjustable.

After I did that the saw worked remarkably well. You need a light tough on the handle and you have to push to cut. If you drop cut the blade deflects a bit and you don't get a perfectly straight cut in the vertical direction. It has little to do with the saw and much to do with the blade deflecting. That's one advantage of a small stiff blade.

When I make panel frames for wainscoting this is where the saw shows that it shines. I make the 45º cuts and use a combination of yellow and 2P-10 glue to assemble them. At the final corner they are either barely touching or just a small distance away, 1/16".

Making frames with wide pcs has always been problematic because the 45s need to be dead on. And most of the times I can do it. Sometimes because of a curve in the molding it's more difficult. But such is when you are using wide stock.

I have a 12" Hitachi slider that has been relegated to rough cuts because it can't be tuned it. The Axial glide works nice for me after I fixed it.

2/5/20       #19: 12” slider ...
Adam

Thank you Leo. You have made my day, week...

My saw has the exact same problem. I will cut that detent gauge in half tomorrow.

Thread over.

2/5/20       #20: 12” slider ...
Leo G Member

Before you do let me double check to see where I cut it. I was going on memory and I did it a few years back.

2/6/20       #21: 12” slider ...
Leo G Member

Aww Man.. Sorry I spaced about this. I did my cut at the 7º mark to the right of 0º


View larger image

2/7/20       #22: 12” slider ...
Adam

Thanks Leo

That allows you to independently adjust one of the 45 detents. The 0 detent and the other 45 detent are still connected.

On my saw both of the 45’s are off from the 0. Why isn’t it necessary to cut it in 2 places? Perhaps the one cut relieves enough stress to allow the detents to realign.

I noticed in your pic that you didn’t remove the thin clear plastic shipping label that is on the steel angle. It’s like the ones you see on remote controls and other black plastics. I always have a laugh when I see it on someone’s old electronics.

2/7/20       #23: 12” slider ...
Leo G Member

The screws that hold it on and allow for adjustment prevent you from cutting it into 3 places. If you drill and add another screw it can probably be done. My 0º is only off by a tiny bit and I know this. When I set it at zero I push to the left and lock the angle and it's pretty good. I'm sure you could figure out a way to add another screw to stabilize the 3rd detent part.

When I go to adjust each 45 I cut 2 boards on the same side at "45" and then check with a square. When you get 90º you adjust the other.

I've been very happy with the saw since I did this. And I find it highly disappointing that they send them out this way. Off by .05º is acceptable, not 0.5º

2/29/20       #24: 12” slider ...
Peter Gagliardi

We have used Hitachi, Dewalt, Bosch, Makita, and (gasp) Ridgid 12" saws over the last 25-30 years. The Ridgid has worked every day , without failure for probably close to 20 of those years.
The fence is adequate, the scales decent, but you will need to fine tune it when new.
It has been an extremely smooth cutting saw, with adequate power for even the big stuff. The first Dewalt we bought way back in the mid 90's was a very good saw, but its replacement of same model was full of vibration- even after several tries of same saws.
The Bosch was machined with offset fences at the factory!!!!!
Makita's just never last very long, and at least for a while, they had the dumb idea of hiding the angle scale under the workpiece.
The Ridgid has surprised us quite a bit.
Not a perfect saw, but a very good , very smooth and solid performer on the jobsite.
There are jobsite saws, and there are shop saws- all the above are jobsite saws.
I have a Festool too. It is a very accurate saw, but they lie through their teeth that it has same capacity as a 12" machine- not no way, not no how.
It was far and away the biggest and most expensive mistake on chopsaws we made.
It is accurate and smooth compared to some, with the best stock dust collection of any we found, and the best tilt scale, which is why we bought it, but the real problem is it is so, so, underwhelmingly powered, it cancels out all the good points.
And it has a tendency to catch little offcuts, pull them up inside, and break the guard.
DAMHIKT!
Almost all our work is in very high end projects with large, prefinished in clear, hardwood moldings exclusively.
Any saw can cut pine moldings, hardwoods, maybe not so much.

3/1/20       #25: 12” slider ...
Adam

Update:

I cut the miter detention into 3 pieces. The angles and square cuts are independently adjustable. Before cutting I squared the saw then drilled two holes right thru the gauge and detent. (2) #6 machine screws.

The whole saw is really well thought out except for the detent. It’s injected molded hard plastic. No machining. They must move slightly after they are poured. You can imagine how little movement would radically change the miter angles.

3/1/20       #26: 12” slider ...
Leo G Member

Glad to hear it worked out. I agree the molding of the detent is probably a bad decision as the plastic moves as it cools. But then again I've seen other milled detents not be accurate also. You just have to wonder if they think people won't notice when you try to make a frame and the last pcs don't align.

Glad it worked out for you.

 

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